I have no experience with Dual, but I've used Bazooka (SAS), Sony, and Blaupunkt audio products before - these aren't exactly top of the line, but decent products for what you pay - similar to Pioneer. I really don't think you can put those brands in the same category as Boss, Pyramid, or Rockwood (junk brands).

I've actually been running SAS 525R Euphonic front components in my Riv for years, and have a brand new set (NOS) ready to install in my next car. I wouldn't say the SAS are as good as Focal or Dynaudio, but they are right up there with Infinity, MB Quart, Polk, Boston, and JL.

BTW, $5200 for Utopias is ridiculous, imo. I think you pay mostly for the Focal name, and so you can have treble response to 40kHz (useless). For less than half that amount, I'm sure I could have a system sounding as good or better, created from raw home audio drivers, including custom filter network. Paying "only" $4k for the Focal set is still a rip-off, imo, for a system using 6 1/2" midwoofers with 5.5mm Xmax. I'm sure the Utopias sound good, but you don't have to spend that much to get there.

I agree about the Focals. The xmax is pointless to talk about with focals though, because they've always been a bright component with little mid bass. Right now I'm running cheapo stuff in my car, aside from my MB Quart sub. As soon as I sell my Fiero I'll be putting in some CDT CL-S60A 6.5/1" components, Cadence TXA-6004 4 channel amp, and I'll upgrade my sub to an MB Quart PWE302.

Then I'll just need to tone the gain down a bit for my front stage (150 watts rms at 4ohms going to 110 watt rms speakers), and for the sub I'll bridge the amp to put out 600 watts rms at 4-ohms and I'll wire the dual 2 ohm sub to 4 ohms, and it can handle 600rms.

Then I'll have $520 into everything listed and will have near audio bliss

Sure the CDT's aren't quite up there with Rainbow, Morel, and Focal, but for the money you can't beat them.

Also, I've always considered Sony an el cheapo brand. I love seeing the car customizing shows when they're like "Bam, we're putting 4 Sony EXPLOD!!! 12" subs in here dog." Talk to any audiophile and they will steer you clear of sony. Even just for buying things in that low price range.

Yeah, I was watching one of them with my dad and I was like "my word, why are they putting sony in that car?" Then my dad..."It must be good if they're using it in this show." I just looked at him and rubbed my fingers together. It's all about the money. People that don't know any better would think Sony is great.

Hell, my cousin's b/f was bragging about his system one day. "high end" sony stereo, Pioneer 12" sub, and sony amp. Then he was complaining about not having much for mids and said he was going to buy an 8" sub to put in it to fix the problem. I was like..."uh, have you replaced your front stage yet?" He didn't know what I was talking about. I was like "you know your front speakers." Then he had the balls to tell me that they sounded great stock. I told him that his mids would be coming from the other speakers, not the sub, and that a 12" sub will play a high enough frequency to blend with your other speakers. I also told him that putting 2 different sized subs in his car was a bad idea unless he really knew what he was doing, because some frequencies would get much louder and others would cancel out and it would start sounding awful. He went ahead and bought the 8" and now he's complaining even more. :/

My cousin didn't know any better so she toughted (sp) his system a lot too. I told her about the system I put in my friend's vibe which cost less and will get louder, sound clearer and play more flat across the spectrum. And she would be like well his brother works in an install shop and got him the best stuff. lol. For the record, my friend's system isn't that special. Including eclipse head unit, 2 cadence amps, knuconceptz 4 gauge wire harness, mb quart 12" sub, CDT front stage, dash install kit, mdf to make enclosure and baffles for the doors, screws, and caulk he had about $700 into it

I have to admit until joining this site and reading all that you guys have written about "Sound Systems" I didn't have much of a clue either. I thought I did.
But in reality all I was good at was wiring a system properly and cleanly. As far as choosing the right speakers for the specific location I found out I didn't know as much as I thought I did.
I have learned a lot just from reading and have concluded I don't have to spend an exorbitant amount of money to get a system that will satisfy my personal listening needs. And I now know how to approach building and installing a system for the proper soundstage. Something I didn't know before.

I wouldnt be buying Focal anything off woofersetc.com

They have been caught selling the impostor/fake Focals and deny it. Then they blame someone else, etc.

There is people in the hobby on all different levels. One thing everyone is certain to encounter is the "expert" or "know all" thats rarely right or doesnt know chit.

)

Just for the record, since the topic seems to be headed this way, the higher end Focal speakers have excellent midbass. You have to be mindfull of the enclosure or environment they are installed in but they are great speakers. As far as being able to play 100hz, that should be no problem for any high-end speakers. I have heard several that are crossed over as low as 50hz with no problem. It all depends on what you are doing and how you are doing it. The subs are some of the best "sounding" subs I have heard. They won't blow your head off, but they are articulate and very precise. The JL w7 is one of the worst "sounding" speakers I have heard for accurate bass reproduction. The w7 is however one of the most fun speakers I have heard. They have a ton of output and play very low. I also agree that $5000 is a lot of money to spend on a set of components. You can spend a fraction of the money on raw home drivers. You really have to know what you are looking for and how you are going to use it though. It seem the more high end the driver is the more particular it is regarding the manner in which it will be used. The enclosure will make all the difference in the world: installed in a door, IB, sealed, ported, a-periodic, transmission line, ect. I can't imagine anyone buying a $5000 set of speakers and just throwing them in the doors. This would KILL any quality they might have. That same $5000 set of speakers installed in a way that the speaker is designed, will sound incredible.

Just my 2cents.

Those $5000 speakers are meant for open air installations. The door is as small of an enclosure as you would want. Compare those to speakers with a bigger xmax and the difference in midbass is very noticeable. The reason they don't have much of an xmax is because focal are known solely for sq and not spl. They sound amazing through out the spectrum, but some people prefer a more heavy mid. Also, the tweeters for focal have always been known to be harsh. If you're looking for all out SQ, you can't beat the focal utopias, but if you like midbass and don't like harsh highs, look somewhere else. Even the silk focal tweeters are very harsh.

To each there own though.

Also, in car audio, you don't want home audio components. They create a very focused sound and are terrible in auto use. Your speakers have to be pointed perfectly to get a good sound, and then your passenger will have a terrible listening experience.

Looks on the outside mean absolutely nothing.

There are internals to speakers. For the most part home audio speakers put out a more focused sound and also play a lot louder. The main reason that they play louder is that they are meant for enclosures rather than open air. In the enclosures they can create better mids without the big xmax. Not having a big xmax allows for higher volumes while keeping sq.

You can't say many are the same, because home audio speakers are designed to be put in enclosures.

Here are two speakers that look alike but by no means are equivalent.

Rainbow SLX230...$220 on woofers.


Quantum Q52 components. $32 on ebay

looks like you'll need to put websites into address bar to see images...stupid copyrights

Good points. I can see how using the Focal components in tuned (possibly vented) cabinets up front could make up for the low Xmax. I'm sure the Focals have great sound quality. But how many people are willing to go through the trouble? I guess to someone spending $5k on components, it means an extra $2k install is acceptable.

I understand most good components can play below 100 Hz, but some can't do it very well at full power rating in a car door, without the aid of a tuned enclosure. Playing down to 50-60 Hz territory can be a challenge even for a speaker like the Focal #7.

Regarding sub "sound quality", I've never used the W7s, but I've tried other JL (high mass, low efficiency) subs. I've also used higher efficiency subs with lighter cones. My preference is to use the sub that can go the deepest and play the loudest with the lowest distortion, like the JL. To me, that is the definition of sound quality when it comes to bass response. If you have a component set that can do its job down to 60 Hz, many subs can sound very similar. The components are really what make or break the sound, imo.

I just read a review on the $1099 Focal 8" Utopia 21WX. Not surprisingly, the first page is all about the wonderful packaging, the cone material, the multiple red magnets, 6 Kg weight, a little about the Focal company, lots of "ooh & ahh" stuff - as I would expect with this kind of esoteric product.

Next page of the review continues on how the special magnets enable the sub to handle a whopping 250 wRMS, and how it must use a larger than average box to play low. I agree, It's fun to admire an 8" subwoofer costing a cool grand. Finally, a few paragraphs on sound quality, a totally subjective review with no real data, just the reviewer glorifying the sub like none other. That's fine. If some folks want to believe this, and it justifies spending that kind of money, great. Not for me.

Crutchfield sells the Focal 21WX for $1,150 and describes it in much the same way, praising Focal for its innovation, and talking up the materials, construction, and looks of the sub. Again, no real objective analysis.

I prefer the reviews I read for JL's W7. Car Audio Mag's review for the 10W7 is here:

http://www.caraudiomag.com/testreports/0210cae_jl_car_audio_10w7_3_woofer/index.html

Notice how they focus on the performance numbers and specific technologies to back up the good sound. They also mention a very flat response curve. Here's a review of the 8W7 from Audio Gear Reviews:

http://www.audiogearreviews.com/reviews/subwoofers/review-JL_Audio_8W7b.asp

Once again, notice how they use real numbers and impressive output measurements to declare the 8W7 "the best damn 8 inch subwoofer ever made."

I don't know, I've never heard a Focal 21WX before. Maybe it's that good. But everything I know about subs from experience, and everything I read about them seems to indicate the W7 would be the better product, or at least the better value for the money.