AutoMatic Headlights HELP

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:16 pm

I fixed my Signature. It wasn't set to show up sorry guys.

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:25 pm

It still isn't showing up.?????

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98 Riv, 102K Miles, EBC, LS1 Ft.Calipers, STB, Addco Rr Sway Bar, 180* stat., SSAC Headers, HF Cat, 1.9's,
105# springs, MPS 3.4, DHP tuned by the Deekster.

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:18 pm

jordynarz wrote:

I have put my Car specs in my Signature BUT, for some reason it won't show up frown

. Please help me lol. I went to check my signature and it shows i have what I wrote there. 1995 riviera s/c stock. But My car at idle i turn on my HID's and the gauges drop to zero and come back up for a second cause of the power it draws. They are not relayed.

Okay, so how did you wire the HIDs? Where did you take power from and what did you ground them to?

And why did you decide not to use a relay?

Albertj

_________________
1998 with all fac. opts. (exc. CD changer and subwoofer); 209,000 miles. Mods: KYB front struts, extra noise barriers, fire extinguisher, Magnecor 8mm plug wires, 4-note horn, custom-made stainless exhaust.

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Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:04 am

Hmm weird that it is not showing up. And I got my HID's from my friend we just hooked them up like he had in his Accord. Plug and play lol. idk. We need to relay them we just haven't had time. But i rev the motor a little then turn them on and it;s fine.

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1995 Riviera S/C Stock

ChaRight!!!

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:05 am

test test test

ok that was a test... It works not... My signature that is.

_________________
1995 Riviera S/C Stock

ChaRight!!!

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:59 am

jordynarz wrote:

Hmm weird that it is not showing up. And I got my HID's from my friend we just hooked them up like he had in his Accord. Plug and play lol. idk. We need to relay them we just haven't had time. But i rev the motor a little then turn them on and it;s fine.

JordyNarz, this isn't going to cut it. DIfferent vehicles, for engineeing reasons, are wired somewhat differently. You really need to figure out and then tell us where did you take power from and what did you ground them to in order to figure out why they are working/not working a certain way. It really matters. And I won't comment on your reason for not using a relay.

For the rest of you reading this, the following is a little perspective.

The Riviera's headlights, being automatic, are not really wired through the headlight switch. And that switch does not directly control the headlight relays. Although you will hear relays click when you use the switch. On the other hand, depending on what year Accord JordyNarz' friend has, the Accord's headlight switch directly controls the coils of its headlight relays. Further, I do not know if his friend's Accord has DRLs, in which case various schemes were used over the years. I need more info to answer that one. Suffice it to say, however, that if the lights are wired in the Riv just like the Accord, JordyNarz most likely is already in trouble.

Why?

In order to provide automatic headlight control, the Riv headlight switch actually signals a "request" to the computer that controls the headlight relays. If the tap for the headlights is taken between the dash switch and that computer, then an unusually high drain is presented to the control wiring, with unpredictable results. The load from the HID ballasts may be somewhat different from (more than) the headlights, so if you make the power tap for the headlights at the headlight wiring then you potentially open up another whole host of problems.

Here is why either of those is a problem, especially in the Riv: Automotive HIDs are in a class of lamps called "low wattage (less than 100 watts) metal halide lamps." They light basically by jumping a spark across a gap in a xenon gas atmosphere (inside the glass bulb). To get that spark started they require separate electronic starting devices (“ignitors”) that create a high voltage pulse to establish the arc. The pulse repeats each cycle with a maximum pulse width of 15 microseconds and once the lamp arc is lit, the ignitor electrically drops itself out of the circuit. Bottom line is, no matter how you wire these things, they may not work the way you expect depending on how much power the ignitors need to get the party (the spark) started--and different company's ignitors have somewhat different power requirements and operating characteristics. However JordyNarz' HIDs are wired, the ignitors are not getting the power needed to reliably start the lamps - either that or his working environment is below -40 degrees C, because basically none of the ignitors work right when it's that cold.

So there are a number of things that could be wrong. There could be alternator or battery issues that pull down the voltage at wherever JordyNarz took the power from for the headlights. The battery could be approaching end of life. The alternator brushed could be worn out or the slip rings not making good contact. Could even just be loose or dirty connectors, or corrosion at a battery terminal. Or, none of these things might be wrong, JordyNarz may have simply used wire that's too thin (which would then act like little current resistors) or not made good connections, or introduced other problems/errors in splicing the HIDs in. Bottom line here is, thought, if the voltage is not enough, the ignitors won't work right. The HIDs use a lot less power to run than to ignite. So however he has those suckers wired, there's not enough juice - so he guns the engine which spins the car's alternator fast enough to provide extra current - and due to the alternators operating characteristic the supply voltage goes up too. The higher voltage and added current compensate for the lack of both at whatever point the HIDs are wired, the ignitors get their juice, the lights fire up - and continue to work becuase once they arc they don't take that much power to stay on.

So at some point JordyNarz will answer questions insteald of blowing them off, and we'll make some progress.

Albertj

_________________
1998 with all fac. opts. (exc. CD changer and subwoofer); 209,000 miles. Mods: KYB front struts, extra noise barriers, fire extinguisher, Magnecor 8mm plug wires, 4-note horn, custom-made stainless exhaust.

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Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:03 pm

Albert, thanks for taking the time and effort to give a thorough explanation of this situation. Way too often, it seems, some guys just jump into modifying factory stuff, w/o researching the issue first. study

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Dave G
98 Riviera
Gutted, 3.8, 180, 104'S, front PEM, 3" DP & Cat, Caddy STB, GR2's. DHP 1.5

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:37 pm

The HID's had a plug that plugs into the factory wiring of the headlight. So I didn't modify anything. And the accord is a 1992 and does not have DRL's. The kit did not come with a relay. And I do agree with you about the size of the wire not being large enough for the current to flow through it properly.

_________________
1995 Riviera S/C Stock

ChaRight!!!

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:13 am

AA wrote:

The twilight sentinel trick only works on early model 8th gen Rivs, 95-96 years I think. My '98 has daytime running and will not allow lights off after dark. I looks like jordynarz has a '95, so should work for him.

'97 and up have an off position at the left side of the Twilight switch's travel, but it it spring loaded... In the dark, the lights can be manually turned on & off by pressing the switch into the spring position, but as soon as you put the tranny in gear, they come on again. Makes it very hard to hide from the cops at night...

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97 Riviera L67 - Desert Sandstone - Gutted AB Lid, Kool Blue AF, 180* SuperStat, Hogan 3" DP, ZZP 3.6" MPS; Sensa-Trac struts, Rockford-Fosgate 6x9's; Annoyance-Fixes: Express-Down delete, Full-time juice to Power Port, BRP-power to Glovebox lite, Brake-to-Shift delete, Console-compartment lite, Seat/Mirror Memory in any gear.

69 Wildcat Convertible, 430" QJet - Burgundy/Black - P/Win, P/Seat, P/Ant, Tilt, Cruise, Remote Trunk, Rallyes, AM/FM Mono!

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:29 am

Albert is correct about the indirect way our headlights are wired. At least on the later cars, the actual headlight power is switched by the Lamp Control Module, under the left side of the dash.

If I understand Jordy's last post, the HID kit plugged directly into the headlight sockets under the hood, which means that they are getting the full, "relayed" current from the LCM.

My concern about the startup of the HID's is that they're somehow messing with the engine controls and killing the engine, not just overloading the alternator. After all, the most the alternator is ever really going to put out is about 100 amps, but there are 800 amps available from the battery... Even if the battery is aging, it can't be that bad if it's still starting the car. And of course, the IAC should open up as soon as the RPM drop.

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97 Riviera L67 - Desert Sandstone - Gutted AB Lid, Kool Blue AF, 180* SuperStat, Hogan 3" DP, ZZP 3.6" MPS; Sensa-Trac struts, Rockford-Fosgate 6x9's; Annoyance-Fixes: Express-Down delete, Full-time juice to Power Port, BRP-power to Glovebox lite, Brake-to-Shift delete, Console-compartment lite, Seat/Mirror Memory in any gear.

69 Wildcat Convertible, 430" QJet - Burgundy/Black - P/Win, P/Seat, P/Ant, Tilt, Cruise, Remote Trunk, Rallyes, AM/FM Mono!

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:41 am

1998 Riv wrote:

Albert, thanks for taking the time and effort to give a thorough explanation of this situation. Way too often, it seems, some guys just jump into modifying factory stuff, w/o researching the issue first. study

I suspect a piece of the problem here is, odds are JordyNarz followed the HID kit makers instuctions by copying the Accord install - but for whatever reason that won't work for the riv. Give him the benefit of the doubt for now and see what he says.

Albertj

_________________
1998 with all fac. opts. (exc. CD changer and subwoofer); 209,000 miles. Mods: KYB front struts, extra noise barriers, fire extinguisher, Magnecor 8mm plug wires, 4-note horn, custom-made stainless exhaust.

Avatar is missing.

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:05 am

jordynarz wrote:

The HID's had a plug that plugs into the factory wiring of the headlight. So I didn't modify anything. And the accord is a 1992 and does not have DRL's. The kit did not come with a relay. And I do agree with you about the size of the wire not being large enough for the current to flow through it properly.

Now we're making progress.

This problem may not be fixable without changes to the wiring. However there are things you can try.

One is, disconnect the HIDs and test for resistance between the terminal that plugs into headlight wiring and the HID ballast. If the terminals were not crimped right some insulation may have got caught under one or more crimps or the wires may have broken under the crimp, which would create resistance and make the ignitors difficult if not impossible to start. If you find connectors with any resistance you will need to disassemble the connectors and recrimp them or replace them. You should be able to get replacements at an auto part store or form Rockauto.com. Or try leaving them in place and soldering them at the crimp, sometimes flowing some solder in there will bridge gaps where the conductors broke under the crimp.

Another thing to try is to clean the terminals with a spray electronic cleaner and some emery cloth. You can cut a skinny piece of emery cloth, or go to a store (sally beauty, CVS, walmart) and get a pack of the cheapie cardboard emery boards. Trim a couple with scissors so you can stick 'em into the female connectors to clean off any corrosion or manufacturing dirt. Use the wide ends to clean the male connectors off.

If these don't work, you could consider buying a different HID kit or rewiring this one to use heavier (14 or 12 ga.) wire and a relay to take + power for the ignitors from the terminal block on the passenger side frame rail in the engine compartment, under the windshield washer reservoir. Relay coil gets energized by the + line from headlights and when closed conducts power from the + terminal block to the ignitors. Watch out for RFI problems from the ignitors.

Albertj

_________________
1998 with all fac. opts. (exc. CD changer and subwoofer); 209,000 miles. Mods: KYB front struts, extra noise barriers, fire extinguisher, Magnecor 8mm plug wires, 4-note horn, custom-made stainless exhaust.

Avatar is missing.

Subject: Re: AutoMatic Headlights HELP Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:58 pm

If you put the old headlights back in, does your car stay running when your headlights are on?

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'98 Buick Riviera; Gen V 3.25 pulley, N*, VS Cam, 180 stat, Custom PCM (Powrtuner), headers & HF cat , 42.5 lb inj.

Grant-built/PRJ/Thrasher trans 3.29 gears, 7/8 chain, zzp hardened IS