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| | | Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower | |
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Karma Enthusiast

Name: Andrew Age: 25 Location: Ontario, Canada Joined: 2008-01-14 Post Count: 640 Contribution: 1071 Integrity: 14
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:35 pm | |
| no personal experience per say for the m90 here, however, when I ported my LIM I ended up with better air flow and velocity through the engine. The result of this was less boost and more power. To make up for the roughly 1-2 psi drop in boost, I dropped back to my 2.5" pulley to take boost back up and then some(as i had no issues with heat and knock). TO me it makes sense that porting of the LIM, exaust work, and valvetrain work would all do their bit to increase air-flow through the engine and result in more power and less boost. The resulting lower boost that some people have observed with ported m90 blower housings; I have my own opinions here. I've spent countless hours looking up info on these eaton blowers and the various opinions of how to (and not to) port them and my opinion falls to the side of those who feel that too aggressive porting in various areas of the blower housing makes it less efficent.(however the lowering in heat buildup leaves the person using it to feel that it increased power) Specific areas that I feel are trouble areas for lowering efficency are the two silencer slits, any cleaning/polishing of the outside circumfrence of the bores where the two rotor lobes turn, and too much deformation to the shape of the V outlet. my own thoughts are that if boost has gone down from a ported blower, and nothing else on the engine has changed, you have just sacrificed some efficency in exchange for less heat buildup. For some people this is a good thing as it allows through the lowering in heat to run full strength with no KR and the engine preforming better. A smaller pulley could be then be added depending on case, but its really to bring the boost back and the resulting heat that will bring must be taken into effect. as always, we end up with the same story with these engines where we want to process as much air through it as efficently as possible, but keep temp down. anyway thats my 2c.... _________________  |
|  | | AA Administrator

Name: Aaron Age: 32 Location: C-bus, Ohio Joined: 2007-01-14 Post Count: 9474 Contribution: 3477 Integrity: 39
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:06 pm | |
| Thanks, Karma. Your cents make sense. I agree that there is a wrong way to port/polish a blower that lowers efficiency, and boost. I want to steer clear of making such a mistake. From the photos on page 1, do you see any that look correct? I'm leaning towards ZZP's approach, but not sure. _________________  |
|  | | Karma Enthusiast

Name: Andrew Age: 25 Location: Ontario, Canada Joined: 2008-01-14 Post Count: 640 Contribution: 1071 Integrity: 14
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:07 pm | |
| the first photo on page one looks the best IMO. It keeps the lines and angles for the V while opening it out a bit more. Maybe could use a little more agressive rounding and smoothing on all edges on the BOTTOM facing side of the housing. I like how the silencer slits are largely unchanged, a slight rounding of the edge can be done there as long as it does not change the original hole size, but making NO changes other than a slight break of the corner from the inside edge where the rotor lobes will pass by. Also a good hard polishing at the inlet end when the air comes from the TB(near where the EGR lets in) will reap the most benifits in regards to heat, as flow testing on these eaton blowers shows that is where the greatest buildup of heat is due to friction. anyway, thats how I would do it. If you realy want to increase the efficency and maybe remove a little fricional heat you could look at plugging the scilencer ports themselves, but that is its own bag of worms as to how to properly do it. here is a link on porting these things with various points of view, also discusses the plugging of scilencer holes..: http://www.eatoninside.com/showthread.php?t=156_________________  |
|  | | turtleman Addict

Name: Codith Age: 22 Location: Villa Park, IL Joined: 2007-02-09 Post Count: 1691 Contribution: 1664 Integrity: 19
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:28 am | |
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|  | | AA Administrator

Name: Aaron Age: 32 Location: C-bus, Ohio Joined: 2007-01-14 Post Count: 9474 Contribution: 3477 Integrity: 39
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:30 pm | |
| Thanks, Codith! _________________  |
|  | | palermocorey90 Addict

Name: Corey Age: 19 Location: Rome NY Joined: 2007-10-03 Post Count: 2950 Contribution: 1420 Integrity: -21
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:56 pm | |
| Codith what did u use to fill in the silencing ports _________________ | Quote: | holmboytravis 8:47pm:pics of Gen Five? holmboytravis 8:47pm:i'd stick the snout IMB |
I told you he was gay 2008 Pontiac Grand Prix: Daily Driver Palermo Edition |
|  | | 98riviera98 Addict

Name: Travis Age: 19 Location: Cottage Grove, MN Joined: 2007-02-08 Post Count: 3964 Contribution: 3039 Integrity: 11
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:00 pm | |
| | palermocorey90 wrote: | | Codith what did u use to fill in the silencing ports |
Kemp closes them with a mystery filler....  _________________ 1.9RR's, SSAC, LQ4 maf and N*, Gen V-ported, L32 LIM ported and polished, L26 block, L67 heads, tune, E85, 65# injectors Worthy quotes: | Rickw wrote: | | What a dipshit, grow up. |
| deekster_caddy wrote: | LOL @ guessing Rick's age. Since we've gotten together a couple of times I won't guess he'd probably hit me |
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|  | | Karma Enthusiast

Name: Andrew Age: 25 Location: Ontario, Canada Joined: 2008-01-14 Post Count: 640 Contribution: 1071 Integrity: 14
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:09 pm | |
| looks like old fashoned JB, or maybe perma-steel, or magnum steel, or cold-weld or all that good stuff... as long as the sides of the ports are scuffed up to be nice and rough it should hold no problems. -still best porting of m90 IMO that i've seen ever... _________________  |
|  | | 98riviera98 Addict

Name: Travis Age: 19 Location: Cottage Grove, MN Joined: 2007-02-08 Post Count: 3964 Contribution: 3039 Integrity: 11
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:37 pm | |
| | Karma wrote: | looks like old fashoned JB, or maybe perma-steel, or magnum steel, or cold-weld or all that good stuff... as long as the sides of the ports are scuffed up to be nice and rough it should hold no problems.
-still best porting of m90 IMO that i've seen ever... |
JB weld NO.... that can come undone and screw junk up!_________________ 1.9RR's, SSAC, LQ4 maf and N*, Gen V-ported, L32 LIM ported and polished, L26 block, L67 heads, tune, E85, 65# injectors Worthy quotes: | Rickw wrote: | | What a dipshit, grow up. |
| deekster_caddy wrote: | LOL @ guessing Rick's age. Since we've gotten together a couple of times I won't guess he'd probably hit me |
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|  | | dreww Enthusiast

Location: Dallas Joined: 2007-04-10 Post Count: 765 Contribution: 1131 Integrity: 8
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:10 am | |
| | AA wrote: | | RickW wrote: | | Decrease resistance = decreased boost / pressure = decreased temps = less KR. |
Please substantiate this logic with more info. I don't understand how decreased resistance = decreased boost. Imo, decreased resistance = less friction = less heat = less knock. I've got a stock roots blower moving 90 cu in of air with each revolution. Now, port & polish to make it easier for that air to exit the blower - now I have less heat, but why less boost? Same amount of air entering the manifold, right? I'd think if you make the blower more efficient, you'd have slightly more boost, not less.
I do understand how decreased pressure = decreased temps, but if I wanted decreased boost, I'd just increase SC pulley size. That's not what I'm after here.
Is it common to drop SC pulley size after only a blower port/polish? Anyone with personal experience? |
the decreased boost is proof of increased efficiency. You make more power with less boost. You will notice less power "off the line" but have more power on the top end. The engine is also struggling less to produce the power, which is why my IPW's went down. You could probably drop pulley size .1" with a full porting job.
I only gained maybe 1lb of boost with my IC install, despite my pulley going from 3.25" to a 2.76". With all the extra restriction due to the IC core, thats what I ended up with. But you thing Im not making tons more power with that boost than I was before? IC increases efficiency, just like a ported blower does. _________________ '96 Riviera - 4T60E - DHP tuned Exhaust: SLP headers, cat/EGR delete Intake: CAI, 2.76" MPS, N*, ported sc, 42.5lb w/ PRJ fuel rails, S2 IC, Meziere IC pump, machined LIM, frozenboost IC radiator Drivetrain: 1.9 roller rockers/pushrods, 105 valvesprings, AC delete next: 2003 4T80E with 50K to go in
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|  | | AA Administrator

Name: Aaron Age: 32 Location: C-bus, Ohio Joined: 2007-01-14 Post Count: 9474 Contribution: 3477 Integrity: 39
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:43 am | |
| | Quote: | | the decreased boost is proof of increased efficiency. You make more power with less boost. |
Really? What if all the coating peeled off the lobes of my supercharger rotors? Boost would decrease. Is that proof of increased efficiency? What if my air filter were clogged with dirt? Boost would decrease. Is that proof of increased efficiency?
I understand how you can have more HP when you open up the engine (increase flow), which lowers boost. The part that concerns me is where the MAP sensor measures vac/boost. To my knowledge, the MAP sensor measures vacuum inside the manifold, the area between the blower and the LIM. So in theory, dropping pressure after the manifold is good, while dropping it before the manifold is not so good.
So, when you do a breathing mod, like exhaust, cam, or ported heads, all of these things work to increase air flow, evacuating pressure after the manifold. This makes sense because you are moving more air overall, but with less boost. The boost was there, but flow mods after the manifold allow it to escape. You can add more fuel because mass air flow is increased.
But if you decrease boost before the MAP is measured inside the manifold, how is this more efficient? How is that moving more air? How does that result in more power? Imo, lowering boost before the manifold is another way to define "restriction".
Does anyone else agree that a blower that makes more boost is not less efficient than one that makes less? Also, how can a blower that makes less boost flow more air?!!_________________  |
|  | | Karma Enthusiast

Name: Andrew Age: 25 Location: Ontario, Canada Joined: 2008-01-14 Post Count: 640 Contribution: 1071 Integrity: 14
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:34 pm | |
| I'm with AA on this one. If changes are made to the supercharger and nothing else, and boost goes down, you have lost efficiency. Maybe gained a bit cooler running, but efficiency is down period. Since these are positive displacement superchargers, boost is built up in the LIM ONLY. So it you made a change upstream(the SC itself) so the SC could flow more air, and boost goes down, you have lost efficiency. The idea of a good P&P is to improve how the air flows through the SC so there is less heat, but without sacrificing efficiency; otherwise you have wasted your time and might as well just put a bigger pulley on the SC as it would accomplish the same thing: less boost, less heat. I could have two blowers: perfectly the same. making say 13psi. lets say on one engine one gives the 13 psi, but on the other it gives 10psi. This is because the second engine flows better from the LIM on, and hence makes better power. A decreased boost number is only proof of increased efficiency of the ENGINE and how it flows from the LIM on(because these are positive displacement SCs) _________________  |
|  | | turtleman Addict

Name: Codith Age: 22 Location: Villa Park, IL Joined: 2007-02-09 Post Count: 1691 Contribution: 1664 Integrity: 19
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:38 pm | |
| I agree with AA on this. The goal is to make less heat, increase potential flow of the unit, and increase the target efficiency range of the blower. At WOT with the motor in its power band, there should be equal or more boost. If its equal, we assume its pushing a cooler charge in and using a little less torque to do so resulting in more power for at least two different reasons. As I see it, if done right, there is no drawback to porting blowers like this. Most of what is done is correcting factory limitations. The second part is, in a sense, re engineering the unit to work to a higher power demand. The only way I can think of that you might see less boost and I can't imagine it would even be enough of a difference to see is by opening up the intake manifold and blower housing for an I/C without putting the I/C in, effectively increasing the volume of the intake manifold. Theory: The same amount of matter (boost or not) occupying more available space means less pressure. I basically did that but since the cam happened at the same time, there is no way to make a judgment on its effect on boost. _________________ 1997 turtle  |
|  | | EASHER Apprentice

Name: ERIK M. ASHER Age: 41 Location: BLOUNTSTOWN, FL Joined: 2008-10-25 Post Count: 85 Contribution: 396 Integrity: 0
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:03 pm | |
| My head is going to explode!!! Can anyone just recommend who does the best porting job? which company should get our business? ZZP? WBS? _________________ ERIK M. ASHER 1998 RIVIERA 107000mi./ SPECTRE FWI/ 180DEG THERMOSTAT/ STS STRUT TOWER BRACE/ INTENSE PCM/ 20" 10spoke rims with P245-35ZR-20 PIRELLI tires
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|  | | AA Administrator

Name: Aaron Age: 32 Location: C-bus, Ohio Joined: 2007-01-14 Post Count: 9474 Contribution: 3477 Integrity: 39
 | Subject: Re: Porting & Polishing Gen III Blower Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:50 pm | |
| Erik, that would be nice to know, but I want to understand the science behind this so I can do it myself - the right way. _________________  |
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