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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:51 am

Battery is fine. I have full power. Everything just ticks when I try to start it. No noise at all from the engine bay.

Any ideas?

Right now, i'm thinking it's the starter or/and fuel pump.

Old people at work are telling me to hit the starter with a wrench and maybe i'll get lucky? huh?

Thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:24 am

It's possible that the starter is locked up. A good way to get a locked starter to turn? Bash it with a hammer or something. Don't hit it hard enough to damage it though.

You're saying it ticks? When you turn the key, the car goes tick tick tick tick tick real fast?
That means there isn't enough juice to turn the starter over usually.....you might want to try some jumper cables if that's the case.
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:30 am

Check ground connection on the battery, The clicking is the starter solenoid trying to engage the starter but there is not enough amps to actually turn the starter motor. If the fuel pump was bad the car would still turn over.
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:53 am

Abaddon wrote:
It's possible that the starter is locked up. A good way to get a locked starter to turn? Bash it with a hammer or something. Don't hit it hard enough to damage it though.

You're saying it ticks? When you turn the key, the car goes tick tick tick tick tick real fast?
That means there isn't enough juice to turn the starter over usually.....you might want to try some jumper cables if that's the case.



yes, thats exactly what it does. it machine gun ticks. I would agree with a jump but i JUST replaced the battery with a yellow optima 4 weeks ago!

the battery is strong. When I power the car on, everything lights up bright and fast. heat turns on, everything.

Just wont start!

I will try the starter bashing tonight!

96_Juggernaut wrote:
Check ground connection on the battery, The clicking is the starter solenoid trying to engage the starter but there is not enough amps to actually turn the starter motor. If the fuel pump was bad the car would still turn over.


Thank you for this. Gonna focus on the starter for now.
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:57 am

"Machine Gun" ticks means either

A) You have a bad connection somewhere

or

B) The battery doesn't have enough juice to turn the car over

When the starter locks up, you'll get a single "tick" followed by nothing usually. I'd try some jumper cables first, or yank the back seat out and check connections....
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:15 pm

X2, first check is all connections, and then the battery. It isn't that your Riv won't start, it's that it won't crank. Are you sure the starter solenoid is clicking? If not, it could also be the V.A.T.S.

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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:18 pm

Fwiw, yellow optima is more of a boat battery (deep cycle)...from what I (think) I know it's all likely that the battery isn't charged full at the moment? Symptoms sound like connection or battery to mirror the above.
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:28 pm

I will take a video when I get home and show you guys.

Abaddon wrote:
"Machine Gun" ticks means either

A) You have a bad connection somewhere

or

B) The battery doesn't have enough juice to turn the car over

When the starter locks up, you'll get a single "tick" followed by nothing usually. I'd try some jumper cables first, or yank the back seat out and check connections....



I hope it's A if it's either of these. It first happened yesterday morning. It ticked a few times then turned over and fired up. The rest of the day it fired up immediately. No problem. Even after sitting in the freezing cold for 8+ hours at work.

This morning it just machine gun ticked and nothing happened.
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:31 pm

I wasn't going to say anything regarding your new battery install, but Yellow Top is rated less in CCA than Red Top. It's not a good cold weather battery. My Red Top barely cranks over in this weather, but it always cranks. Sorry to hear yours is having trouble!

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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:48 pm

AA wrote:
I wasn't going to say anything regarding your new battery install, but Yellow Top is rated less in CCA than Red Top. It's not a good cold weather battery. My Red Top barely cranks over in this weather, but it always cranks. Sorry to hear yours is having trouble!


Well, thanks, AA!!!!

Hopefully when I get home, my babe'll run again! cool


Thanks for the ounce of hope
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:13 pm

We got a heat wave today... 20F! Giver her a crank and see what happens.

Also, with these deep cycle batteries, they need a long charge. If you get her running, drive at least 30 mins. Good luck!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:48 pm

AA wrote:

Also, with these deep cycle batteries, they need a long charge. If you get her running, drive at least 30 mins. Good luck!

^what I meant earlier.
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:11 pm

Try bringing the battery inside for a little bit to let it warm up. Put it on a charger if you have one. Once it has warmed up, take it out to your car and try to start the car.

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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:19 pm

What Abaddon already told you twice.
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:14 pm

Didnt turn over when I got home. So you think the CCAs are weak? A jump would get it started you think?

Here's the vid. Try not to confuse the ticking with the cassette player freaking out.

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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:52 pm

I don't think the CCA are less. Optima rates the Yellows lower, so I went by that.

Probably what happened is the battery voltage is low from repeated start attempts and sitting, making the situation worse. First thing I'd do is measure batt voltage. Then I'd get a jump to start the car.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:42 pm

AA wrote:
I don't think the CCA are less. Optima rates the Yellows lower, so I went by that.

Probably what happened is the battery voltage is low from repeated start attempts and sitting, making the situation worse. First thing I'd do is measure batt voltage. Then I'd get a jump to start the car.

Car never sat around tho neutral I dont have a voltmeter either. Gonna have to try n jump it and hope for the best.


I have just never seen something like this before. I have full power. Battery seems strong. Just wont start.
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:47 pm

How long are your drives in between starts?? sometimes very short drives will slowly kill the battery because the charge from a short drive does not overcompensate for the power required for starting. Just a thought
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:56 pm

charlieRobinson wrote:
I have just never seen something like this before. I have full power. Battery seems strong. Just wont start.

That's a little thing called Amperage. You can have 12 Volts all day long. If there isn't enough Amperage (which is actually power), it won't turn the car over. It requires quite a bit of juice to turn a car over.

We get bad batteries in here all the time that do the same thing. There might be a single bad cell in the battery causing it to lose it's cranking power, but it's live enough to power everything else. All it takes is a little "extra" resistance somewhere to cause unwanted problems....
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:33 pm

Gosh dang it. It worked. Jump start got her moving again.

So, i shouldve got the red top instead? Or just move to warmer place?

confused
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:35 pm

Red Top is a better cold starter.

The battery's ability to deliver Amps is directly related to its voltage potential, which decreases as you use the battery. We know car batteries are rated at 12 volts when charged, and with different cranking amp capability. The CA rating is also affected by temperature. There's CA and CCA (cold cranking amps). Optima specs:

Optima Yellow
cranking amps: 870 A
cold cranking amps: 750 CCA
#1 advertised benefit: "Deep-cycling and cranking power"

Optima Red
cranking amps: 1000 A
cold cranking amps: 800 CCA
#1 advertised benefit: "Strongest five-second starting burst"

If your battery won't start when it's cold, but starts when warm, it's a CCA issue. But if your battery does't start when it's cold, and then doesn't start after it warms up, it's a voltage issue. The reason is, when voltage drops amperage also drops. It's Ohm's law:

I = V/R

or:

Amps = Volts / Resistance

Starter motor resistance is very low, about .015 ohms. So plug it in for 12v:

I = 12/.015 = 800 Amps

That's how much our starter needs to turn over. A warm 12V Red Top has no problem with its 1000 A rating, and Yellow Top also has no trouble with its 870 A rating. But when it gets cold you have a problem. Red Top just barely has enough.

After you try to start a few times, voltage starts to drop. If you plug in the same values for 11V, you'll see the Yellow Top now has 733 CCA, and for 10V it only has 667 CCA - not even close to enough. Every time you try to start without success, the voltage drops a little and compounds the problem.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


Last edited by AA on Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:35 pm

twak Ok, now you're just going to confuse the boy...


Last edited by Abaddon on Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:39 pm

It's not so bad. They still teach math in school, right? I'd rather try explaining than just say Red Top is better. Yellow is better at some things, like playing your stereo for 2 hours in summertime. If you want a battery to start your car every time, Red Top wins.

And getting a volt meter can give an idea of how many amps your battery is putting out!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:43 pm

AA wrote:
And getting a volt meter can give an idea of how many amps your battery is putting out!

*cough* Ammeter *cough* tongue
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PostSubject: Re: MY RIV WONT START!   Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:45 pm

Nope, voltmeter. If you measure the resistance of the starter motor, you can calculate its draw at a specific voltage.

(an ammeter will work, but it is an expensive tool that most of us don't have in the garage)

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


Last edited by AA on Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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