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 Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)

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designer1962
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PostSubject: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:14 pm

I had a pretty severe "bounce" occur at highway speed on my 1995 Riv. Took it to the garage and had four brand new tires installed and balanced. Symptoms continued so I had front struts installed, Symptom continued but not as severe. Had wheels rebalanced. Symptoms continued so I had new front hubs and bearings installed. The "bounce" seems to still be present but not as severe as initially.

Anyone have any idea what could be causing this? The only thing I can think of is the transmission? Half shafts? CV joints? I am stumped. The shake seems to be on the drivers side.

Any ideas are surely welcome. I think the next step is to sell the car and get another one!
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:08 am

What is the condition of your control arm bushings?
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designer1962
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:39 pm

I don't know, but when the car was inspected when I bought it they passed. The car has about 195,000 miles on it and I have been restoring most of the mechanicals over the past year. Think the bushings could be the culprit? I'll have a look next time it's on a lift.
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:51 pm

The Lower Control Arm bushings can appear to be ok. They don't wear out and fall apart like most cars. What happens is, the inner bores of the sleeves get larger and/or oblong. You may or may not be able to detect this without the car being off the ground, and have a pry bar to put pressure on them. A lot of out members (including myself), have replaced the control arms as a last resort and fixed our problems.

A good little test to determine if they're bad is this....
Have a helper get in the car. Have them roll forward (while your outside the car) and have them stab the brakes. Have your hand on top of the tire while they do this. You will literally feel the tire move. If they're bad enough, you can visually see it move. You can brake torque the car also and see it move.

A "bounce" generally isn't a symptom of bad control arm bushings, but I wouldn't rule it out. By bounce do you mean the car bounces too much, or does it feel like the whole body shimmys when you hit bumps? Did you have the Strut Mounts replaced as well?
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:09 pm

Maybe bounce means vibration at speed?

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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:52 am

My guess is the bushings.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:56 am

Gosh, I am just "shooting from the hip" here as they say, but you've gotten your life out of those lower control arms with 195,000 on them I think. With THAT many miles on them without being replaced yet tells me that either you're a very careful driver avoiding man-hole covers and potholes, or you live in an area where they do a superb job maintaining the streets and highways. I had a problem with vibration upon braking. Chalk one up to lack of experience, I replaced the front struts and the problem left for a couple of days, but reared it's ugly head right back in a couple of days steady driving. I'm not a mechanic Harvey, but I would highly a suggest getting a new set of control arms with really good bushings, a set of CV joints not made in China ( you're already in there, might as well throw a new set in while everything is taken apart!)and new sway-bar end links and frame bushings for your sway-bar. That should go a long ways toward tightening up things in the front for say..... The next 150,000 miles, and money well spent. Sure beats a new car payment!
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:36 am

Have you replaced the rear shocks? Also check the automatic level control for leaks (does the back end seem low?). Inexpensive wear parts that I would replace before the other stuff.

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designer1962
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:48 pm

Hey Everyone, Thanks for the input. I'll check into all the things you suggested and see what's up. I'll get back to you when it's done. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Oh and yes the rear shocks are new.

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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:27 pm

I just located bushings at Rock Auto. It looks like the MOOG Part# 22112889 kit is what I need. It includes front and rear bushings. Anything else I need to know? These are apparently replaceable only in the 95 and 96 models. Later years require replacement of the entire control arm. Phew! Maybe I  lucked out. We shall see.
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designer1962
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:21 pm

Well I got the MOOG bushings kit from Rock Auto along with a pair of ball joints as long as I was getting everything taken apart. I drove the car a few miles at around 50 and it feels a lot better. Hopefully this will resolve the issue. The worse part was getting the job done. I was given an estimate of 3hrs time to do the job. ($256) Also had to buy setting toe and alignment. ($70) I thought that was reasonable. When I picked up the car I was presented a bill with an additional $240 for labor since they had a difficult time removing the old ball joints! They said they had to torch the old ball joints off. I feel like I was a bit screwed but I had to bite the bullet and pay the bill. Let's see if all of this was worth it. Time will tell. So is $566 in labor charges in the ballpark, or did my favorite garage screw me once again?


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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:09 pm

Well now I just don't know where to go. I can still feel a shimmy in the front end after replacing the tires, rebalancing them, replacing the front struts, replacing the hubs and bearings, and finally replacing the lower control arm bushings, and ball joints. It's not as severe as when I started, but it seems to occur when I back off the accelerator or when driving through a curve. I am at a total loss. What's left? The steering column was rebuilt last summer. Could it be in the steering or maybe the transaxle? BY the way I am having all of this work done at a garage. I don't work on cars any longer since I turned 70.

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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:12 am

designer1962 wrote:
Well now I just don't know where to go. I can still feel a shimmy in the front end after replacing the tires, rebalancing them, replacing the front struts, replacing the hubs and bearings, and finally replacing the lower control arm bushings, and ball joints. It's not as severe as when I started, but it seems to occur when I back off the accelerator or when driving through a curve. I am at a total loss. What's left? The steering column was rebuilt last summer. Could it be in the steering or maybe the transaxle? BY the way I am having all of this work done at a garage. I don't work on cars any longer since I turned 70.


Have your tires been "road force balanced" on a Hunter 9700?

If it pops up when you back off the accelerator it might actually be CV joints.

Albertj


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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:06 pm

I could NEVER get rid of my "bounce" until I installed my aftermarket wheels/tires. I balanced the factory tire/wheels until I was blue in the face. When I bought my AR wheels and put them on, I went "holy shit". One or more of my wheels must be oblong. Just sayin.....
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:08 am

Abaddon wrote:
I could NEVER get rid of my "bounce" until I installed my aftermarket wheels/tires. I balanced the factory tire/wheels until I was blue in the face. When I bought my AR wheels and put them on, I went "holy shit". One or more of my wheels must be oblong. Just sayin.....

This could be an issue if your car was in a wreck or hit a big pothole before you got it.

Albert
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:32 am

albertj wrote:
This could be an issue if your car was in a wreck or hit a big pothole before you got it.

No wrecks. Just 12 years of abuse from me. I was merely offering up a different solution. I had already gone through all the usual suspects. The vibration got better with everything I replaced, but didn't really disappear until the wheels were replaced.
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:43 pm

Abaddon wrote:

albertj wrote:
This could be an issue if your car was in a wreck or hit a big pothole before you got it.


No wrecks. Just 12 years of abuse from me. I was merely offering up a different solution. I had already gone through all the usual suspects. The vibration got better with everything I replaced, but didn't really disappear until the wheels were replaced.

I did say before you got it.

When I got my Riv I had to replace one of the alloys, supposedly it was out of round. I still have it, it's not on the car it's stored.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:13 pm

UPDATE: After all the stuff I've done (new tires, balance/rebalance, wheel hubs and bearings, struts, lower control arm bushings and ball joints) I took the car out today and got a "vibration" in the front end at around 52 MPH. It lessened if I increased the speed. Now what it is doing is vibrating when I let off on the gas at around 50 or so and goes away when I reapply gas. I am totally stumped now other than thinking I should replace the front half shafts and CV joints. The car has about 195,000 miles on it and I am assuming the front end except for what I have replaced is original. Any further thoughts from any of you? Do I look at the rack and pinion next? OH, and the entire steering column was rebuilt last year to eliminate that Riviera "wobble". The shake even occurs when cruise control is engaged.
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:31 pm

Welcome to the club Harvey....we all have that goddamn shimmy
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:47 am

designer1962 wrote:
UPDATE: After all the stuff I've done (new tires, balance/rebalance, wheel hubs and bearings, struts, lower control arm bushings and ball joints) I took the car out today and got a "vibration" in the front end at around 52 MPH. It lessened if I increased the speed. Now what it is doing is vibrating when I let off on the gas at around 50 or so and goes away when I reapply gas. I am totally stumped now other than thinking I should replace the front half shafts and CV joints. The car has about 195,000 miles on it and I am assuming the front end except for what I have replaced is original. Any further thoughts from any of you? Do I look at the rack and pinion next? OH, and the entire steering column was rebuilt last year to eliminate that Riviera "wobble". The shake even occurs when cruise control is engaged.

Try rotating your tires, just to see. My '98 never had a wobble. Also have the tires rebalanced and ask them to see if the tires spin true. Some have "lumpy" treads. In my tire shop I've cured "uncurable" wobbles by literally grinding down high spots on the tread. Not all tires are made perfectly round, and some are notable worse than others.

The only other rotating part up there that you haven't replaced which could be affected by accel/decel is the CV joints/shafts.

(also, please add the year/make of your car to your signature and enable your signature. It helps us all keep things straight)
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designer1962
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:08 am

Thanks for the suggestions. CVjoints and half shafta are next on the agenda.

I'd be happy to add to my signature, but have no idea how.

HC
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:58 am

Just go to "Profile" at the top, then Signature (just under the top row, on the right side). Fill in some basic info and Save. Then go to Preferences (right next to Signature) and set "Always enable my signature" to Yes (and Save)
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designer1962
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:43 pm

Well, the mystery continues.

I had the left and right halfshafts and CV joints replaced and the result is that I still get a vibration in the front end that is not as severe, but still present. While doing the halfshafts, discovered the outer tie rod ends were in bad shape, so that is the next attempt at getting rid of the "bounce" (don't know what else to call it)

Recapping, My 1995 Riv developed wheel bounce at highway speed. Replaced all tires, balanced them and then rebalanced them. Replaced both struts. Replaced hubs and bearings on both sides. Rebuilt lower control arms (new bushings) and new ball joints. finally replaced half shafts and CV joints. About to replace outer tie rod ends.

The front developed a vibration of some sort that seems to occur when letting off the gas after accelerating, but will also occur at around 45 to 50 mph for no apparent reason. As I have said I have replaced just about everything I thought could cause it with only some improvement. One mechanic suggested it might be a motor mount rather than suspension. Any thoughts? Anyone.

Latest thing is the steering wheel now is not straight when car is driving straight. That started when the cvs joints were replaced. Is this something that is an easy fix?

"Baffled in Baltimore"


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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:00 pm

Your steering wheel isn't straight because the repair shop probably disconnected the lower control arms or the struts and never re-aligned the car.....
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PostSubject: Re: Puzzled over front wheel "bounce" (1995 Riv)   Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:05 pm

also check if any of your brakes are dragging.
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