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 Knock/KR in 4th Gear

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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:13 am

I did some rainy scans today. Ambient temp was ~70. Traction control was on and off throughout the run. I only saw KR at low RPM in 4th. I got 0 at WOT all the way through first and second. Anyone have some recommendations for me to try? I almost want to go throw on the 3.2 and see what happens now. Here's a link to my scan.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pn4pesn5my6x77s/Aug12.csv
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:48 am

matt270avian wrote:
I did some rainy scans today. Ambient temp was ~70. Traction control was on and off throughout the run. I only saw KR at low RPM in 4th. I got 0 at WOT all the way through first and second. Anyone have some recommendations for me to try? I almost want to go throw on the 3.2 and see what happens now. Here's a link to my scan.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pn4pesn5my6x77s/Aug12.csv

You are running stock timing, I assume?
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: KR in 4th   Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:49 am

charlieRobinson wrote:
You are running stock timing, I assume?

Yes

Gah, thread got changed while I was typing.

Here's a link to my current .bin

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dq2mknifv7vnpma/AAAokTR_ZfzYoUbfSSjiaxXDa
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:28 pm

Matt, I looked over your tune, and made some changes. Send me your email and I'll ship it to you. Don't worry. I did nothing major. Just some minor fueling and trans tweaks. I'm shocked at how few parameters the '96 has compared to a even a '97, which has fewer than a '98.

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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:36 pm

PM'd, thanks. I was thinking about getting a 98 PCM and then just deleting everything for the different tranny. Obviously I would have to compare and see if there were any other things that needed to be removed but it should be a straight up swap other than that, right?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:03 pm

I can't remember if we used my TCC lock-up values for yours last year, but the stock TCC lock-up is pretty aggressive. It would most certainly be a factor if you're seeing the KR under lock-up. I wouldn't throw on the 3.2 until you get this sorted out.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:06 pm

AA wrote:
I can't remember if we used my TCC lock-up values for yours last year, but the stock TCC lock-up is pretty aggressive. It would most certainly be a factor if you're seeing the KR under lock-up. I wouldn't throw on the 3.2 until you get this sorted out.

There isn't even any options in the tree to change TCC Lockup/Release. All there is to change is Turbine Torque for TCC Locked and TCC Unlocked.....
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:21 pm

AA wrote:
I can't remember if we used my TCC lock-up values for yours last year, but the stock TCC lock-up is pretty aggressive. It would most certainly be a factor if you're seeing the KR under lock-up. I wouldn't throw on the 3.2 until you get this sorted out.


There's not a lot of things you can change like Abaddon said. Feel free to take a look and make some suggestions. IIRC we just flashed MR. Riviera's (the other Matt with the other white '96) which was pretty much stock minus the higher shift points, governor removed, and fans adjusted for the 180* tstat.

I wonder if it would be possible to add a tree for the TCC lockup/release (sorry if that's a stupid question)
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:27 pm

Wow, that's hard to believe. If that's the case with HPT, I'm really glad I'm still using DHP:


_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:32 pm

I'm using DHP AA. Those options are just gone. The '96 does have a different trans though, doesn't it? And it's mostly vacuum operated?
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:39 pm

Abaddon wrote:
I'm using DHP AA. Those options are just gone. The '96 does have a different trans though, doesn't it? And it's mostly vacuum operated?

I'm also using DHP, as is AA. The '96 has the 4T60E, while '97+ has the 4T65E-HD. They're similar but the 60 is a vacuum/electric hybrid while the 65 is electric only.
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:10 pm

Ahh, I forgot about that. That's why I couldn't tune yours when you came out.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:33 pm

Hmm. Quick question about DHP - I ran my installer so I could look over your bin in DHP, but it insists that I connect the powertunr to activate it for the first time. I sold mine long ago. Anyone know if there is a way around the hardware check?
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:14 pm

AA wrote:
I can't remember if we used my TCC lock-up values for yours last year, but the stock TCC lock-up is pretty aggressive. It would most certainly be a factor if you're seeing the KR under lock-up. I wouldn't throw on the 3.2 until you get this sorted out.

Is there a thread on TCC tuning here?

I need to learn more about this..


Are you saying we should decrease TCC lock up vals as to reduce wear and tear on our trans (and KR)?
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:06 pm

AA wrote:
Wow, that's hard to believe. If that's the case with HPT, I'm really glad I'm still using DHP:







here's what mine look like. Still stock.
What can I do to improve them? Please move to TCC thread if there is one. No hijacking intended. nono 

here's the performance table. Not much different than the normal TCC
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:36 pm

I ran some scans after flashing Abaddon's tune. Everything seems good and the fuel trims seem to have settled down after they were reset. I did some spirited driving and really beat on the car for the first time in awhile. 0 KR all the way to the top of 2nd at WOT from a standstill. Launching is starting to get harder....... Will do a highway scan tomorrow to see if I'm still getting any while cruising.
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:35 pm

bro, if you just resat your trims, you need to drive like a normal citizen for like 20mins, turn the car off for a couple minutes, and then repeat at least 2 times so your trims are learned before you go WOT.


But good for you for having a Riv with just downpipe and stock timing that can take a 3.4" pulley and see 0KR. That's not ordinary, i dont think.

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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:59 pm

matt270avian wrote:
Launching is starting to get harder.....




I fixed your Trans Torque tables, and mushed Turbine torque for TCC lockup in 4th gear hoping to maybe alleviate some of your KR at that spot.

Aaannnddd your Turbine torque for TCC unlocked was too low IMO. I fattened them up quite a bit. I can't firm up anything else, which blows. You would LOVE a bad ass trans tune...

I'm hoping to have smoothed out idle, and gave it a "kick" at about 25-30% throttle?

Charlie, WOT runs off of PE settings, not Fuel Trim. Either way, he saw no KR,  so it doesn't really matter what Fuel Trims say
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:08 pm

charlieRobinson wrote:
bro, if you just resat your trims, you need to drive like a normal citizen for like 20mins, turn the car off for a couple minutes, and then repeat at least 2 times so your trims are learned before you go WOT.


I did. I had to go onsite a few times to a few different places for work. Then I went to my friends house. All in all it was about 40 miles with 4 restarts. Only after that did I start beating on it and scan.

Abaddon, idle seemed to be pretty much the same. Car might have had a little better response where you said. It felt slightly better but that may have been the placebo effect.
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:47 am

matt270avian wrote:
Abaddon, idle seemed to be pretty much the same. Car might have had a little better response where you said. It felt slightly better but that may have been the placebo effect.

I love placebo effect. It's like getting free drugs  cool 
Give it a couple of days before you play with it again. I'd like to see a log of TP, MAP, O2, RPM, STFT and KR eventually.

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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:17 am

Here are today's scan and bin files. Idle seemed a little rough this morning. Almost stalled after first crank, then it came to life with a bit of unevenness for a minute or two before I set off. I'm still seeing some knock in 4th if I gently roll on to the throttle. Every other throttle position in every other gear seems to be just fine with 0 knock.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2m8rqlyqzvroxls/AAAxnaxZb43366uhOm39TuY_a
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:24 am

matt270avian wrote:
Almost stalled after first crank, then it came to life with a bit of unevenness for a minute or two before I set off. I'm still seeing some knock in 4th if I gently roll on to the throttle.


The temperature down a bit this morning? Mine did the same thing. I've noticed that when humidity and temperature drastically change from when you last ran the car, it starts funny.

I don't think we can cure that 4th gear Converter KR. We have no way to adjust your TC settings. I'd say that if you have to get moving, manually put it into 3rd and go?

V5? I'll look at the scan later on tonight.
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:52 am

Abaddon wrote:
The temperature down a bit this morning? Mine did the same thing. I've noticed that when humidity and temperature drastically change from when you last ran the car, it starts funny.

I don't think we can cure that 4th gear Converter KR. We have no way to adjust your TC settings. I'd say that if you have to get moving, manually put it into 3rd and go?

V5? I'll look at the scan later on tonight.



It was a little cooler this morning.

Usually if I'm getting on it it's only in first or second anyways. Rarely third. If I need to pass somebody in 4th it usually shifts down to 3rd before any knock sets in.

I named it V5 because I read the PCM after the flash and test drives and chose that bin to upload.

Do you think I should try the 3.2 and see what knock I get?
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:58 am

matt270avian wrote:
Do you think I should try the 3.2 and see what knock I get?



NO. Let me play with this tune of yours. If I like what I see, and have room, I can advance timing some and try again. If you have ZERO KR right now, I can absolutely advance it a bit. For now I just want to get your WOT A/F back to "normal" (you had it set too rich), and get the MAF squared away. Once I see where the rabbit hole ends, we'll know exactly where to go from there. Then we can suck more ponies out of it. It takes some time....
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PostSubject: Re: Knock/KR in 4th Gear   Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:01 am

Sorry... I'm impatient with these things. It's a bad thing I know.
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