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 FGT supercharger swap project

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turtleman
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PostSubject: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:04 pm

FGT is 2005-2006 Ford GT (supercar)
The OEM supercharger is an eaton-made 2.3L lysholm twin-screw. This is actually near identical to what Eric with the whipple riv (may it rest in piece) had. The FGT package should be reasonably easy to bolt up to my intake/IC and thankfully pretty easy to reverse-engineer for me to make adapter plates and stuff - very plain bolt patterns and opening dimensions. I believe the tricky stuff is going to be getting the alternator clear of it and designing a throttle body set up that isn't compromised somehow. Ok here's pictures of the blower.


First of all, I love how it just looks like a standard old eaton. I'm not sure I'm actually gonna be fooling anyone but I'm gonna try lol


bottom. Notice how the openings and bolt pattern are pretty simple. I can 2D model this very easily.


That inlet area is just huge! The oval is about 78mm x 168mm. If that doesn't say something about what this blower can do..


I don't think I've seen a literally brand new rotor pack up close before


It's pretty big.. In this picture it just doesn't look like it's gonna fit, but it is. It's actually not really any taller or wider than the M90 discounting a couple things that stick out the side for various stuff on the original car.


This is gonna be one of those long drawn-out slow going progress threads so don't hold your breath for updates but eventually this is going down! I'll post everything along the way and ask for opinions on stuff here and there probably.
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:45 pm

I wonder if you could rig the GT throttle body to work with that... At this point don't you think your N* might be restricting it?
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:07 pm

yeah... the inlet looks HUGE. can you get a pic of that?

Amazing. shocked
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:50 pm

matt270avian wrote:
I wonder if you could rig the GT throttle body to work with that... At this point don't you think your N* might be restricting it?

Yeah, the northstar throttle body would definitely be restrictive. The opening area of my 78mm throttle body is about 4776mmsq. The stock twin 60mm throttle body on a gt500 works out to 5652mmsq. I'm assuming that the FGT tb is the same size as a gt500 but I don't know. I would like to make the ford throttle body work in the end if I can. Spectre sells silicone boots that transition that oval to a 4" round so that'd work out ok with the maf sensor and stuff. If I can design an angled plenum for the throttle body, i'll be set either way. A northstar adapter plate would be a nothing part to make for temporary use.
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:42 pm

You could also grab one of the dual 62mm one's out there. Ford Racing, GMS, BBK, and SR performance all have their own versions of the dual 62mm that all look more or less the same.
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stan
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:00 pm

Wiiiiiiiiiii...... Hahaaha
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:09 pm

stan wrote:
Wiiiiiiiiiii™

Fixed
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:34 pm

THANX,Matt!
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:08 pm

matt270avian wrote:
You could also grab one of the dual 62mm one's out there. Ford Racing, GMS, BBK, and SR performance all have their own versions of the dual 62mm that all look more or less the same.

I was lookin around a little at all those. The accufab one is a gorgeous piece of metal. Problem is they are all big $$$ and I don't think I have enough to gain from them to justify it. I haven't done the math yet but if it flows enough cfm with the twin 60mm tb to put my undersized 3.8L engine at or above 20psi boost, there would only be a miniscule efficiency gain to be had after that with a larger tb. This of course is my speculation.
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:09 pm

stan wrote:
Wiiiiiiiiiii...... Hahaaha

Gonna be more like Wooooooooooo after that goes on!
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stan
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:43 pm

Everybody on this forum should get/have this Ford 05/06 supercharger.
Wiiiiiiiiiii™

Codith how much is this charger?
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 02, 2015 4:07 pm


This is how I think I'm going to situate the blower with respect to the LIM. The belt drive lines up and the two bolt patterns should work out. I'm going to do what I can to transition the differences in size nicely. The opening for the GT blower is kinda just the entire bottom of the casting minus the edge for the gasket. Actually if you look in that picture, the outside width of the gasket laid on the blower is right where the cavity ends. That is a really shallow bevel to make on any thickness adapter. I might be doing some actual CAM-CNC work on this. I haven't done a lot of that at work yet.


Some other layout shots









northstar tb bore doesn't even take half the space up

two would work pretty good...



That's a 2D sketch of the top view of my throttle body angle plenum. I need to model it in 3D before I know if the inside two bolt holes are going to interfere with the opening. This is gonna be a hell of thing to make actually. That's a big-ass aluminum billet! The height of the dimension you don't see (because 2D) is 4.188
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 02, 2015 8:22 pm

turtleman wrote:
[/url]

two would work pretty good...


TWO would indeed work pretty good....... lmao
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 09, 2015 1:25 am

While I'm waiting for some other things to go down (mapping out the lower intake and stuff), I'm workin on designing and making a temporary throttle body plenum to work with the northstar throttle body. Temporary doesn't mean hacked together though, it's gonna be nice.



That's two out of the three pieces done. Sometimes I really wish I could weld aluminum! lol


That's after sandblasting the outside to remove any machining marks and the stock finishes so it kinda has the appearance of being fine cast like that like an OEM part. I'm going to paint it to match the blower. I'm going as much as possible for a factory appearance.

The third piece that the northstar tb will mount to is about 90% designed. I had a hell of a time with that (designing) because I want a 30deg downward tilt so that along with the forward angle of the pieces pictured above, It'll shoot the intake piping out straight to the fender-well hole.
I can't quite make up my mind about if I want to even do it that way though because even though it'll look really nice and neat that way and give me some extra insurance against hood clearance issues there, it'd probably be better just to leave the throttle body straight instead of pointing down and use the larger diameter 4" intake pipe to make that bend.
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 09, 2015 1:18 pm

Pretty sure we can weld aluminum, but I would have to ask my friend if he still has the gas for it. Shoot it on up here if you want.
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 09, 2015 9:46 pm

matt270avian wrote:
Pretty sure we can weld aluminum, but I would have to ask my friend if he still has the gas for it. Shoot it on up here if you want.
Don't you have to use a TIG welder for aluminum? Or is there something I'm missing that allows you to use a MIG welder for aluminum?
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 09, 2015 9:57 pm

You can use a MIG, all you have to do is lower the voltage a bit, use a thicker wire, and a different gas. It won't be as pretty as TIG welds but it gets the job done.
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Fri May 15, 2015 1:43 am

I basically finished the throttle body plate so the intake thingy is as good as done. Hopefully I don't have any unforeseen problems with it.


There's some of my working sketch. Designing this stuff is always a mixture of fun and aggravating. Everything about this was quite deliberate. The 5-bolt pattern is for connecting the throttle body plate to the tube that's pictured above. The hidden (dashed lines) are where the seal sits around the opening. Five screws is the most I can have evenly spaced without interfering with the throttle body's seal where it goes down to box off the IAC passage. The tube will have that five-bolt pattern four more times around so that I can actually clock the throttle body twenty different ways to help with clearance and throttle cable arrangement and whatnot. That "0.4375" hole I added last minute for an optional PCV inlet entry. It's tapped for 1/4NPT.



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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 16, 2015 12:12 am

I love it!  How close will this put you to making more boost than the engine can handle?  Or more power than the fwd suspension can handle?  Has anyone tore a motor out of the mounts yet?

You know I love the Riv but - why a Riv?  I can understand the simpler, cheaper mods, but you're getting into the madness.
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 16, 2015 3:13 pm


did that last little transition angle real quick and sand blasted it. Now I gotta find some paint that matches the bright silver powdercoat on the blower and make it look stock.


There's the northstar throttle body seal laid on top for general reference.


Jack the R wrote:
I love it!  How close will this put you to making more boost than the engine can handle?  Or more power than the fwd suspension can handle?  Has anyone tore a motor out of the mounts yet?

You know I love the Riv but - why a Riv?  I can understand the simpler, cheaper mods, but you're getting into the madness.


More boost than the engine can handle is practically impossible with this blower IMO. It is designed to work to about 20psi and more than that is very doable but it'd be drawing easily over 150hp from the crank at that point and i'd never get the serpentine belt to hold on over that. It's gonna be fun to see what limits I run into with stuff but I don't think at all the block can't take the boost - could definitely lift the heads if timing gets too hot but really it's gonna be a blower/drive issue first.
As a side note, this will be working on an L67 (low compression) block, not the L26 in my sig - I'll be swapping that in the next few weeks if it goes according to plan. On paper, my built trans should be able to handle anything I'd dish out even with this blower. If I can make 450-500 at the tires, I'll will be foaming from all pores with joy.

I haven't heard of tearing out motors mounts. I've heard of a couple cases of people fracturing transmission housings which would really suck.

Despite it's many practical shortcomings as it gets older, the riv is my favorite car period. Every time I visit getting another car to play with, it comes down to missing some big component I love about the riv. Sometimes it's just the nebulous factor of the riv that other cars lack, not to be mistaken with sentimental value. The available low-cost engine just helps me justify doing what I want to do with it. The riv sticks with me but I think I'd be doing the same kind of thing if I had a different car - it's just my way.
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 16, 2015 10:59 pm

It's great to see your enthusiasm for such an obscure car. I got to talking to a couple guys on Deviant Art about it. One had an 8th gen Riv and traded it for, ah, I don't think it was a Marauder but some version of Grand Marquis with more performance? The other guy considered the Riv one of the top 5 ugliest cars ever. I don't see it no I love the way the Riv looks.

Refresh my memory, the stock supercharger only makes around 6 psi of boost, right? How much can the motor take? How much do you expect tog et with the FGT supercharger?
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sat May 16, 2015 11:46 pm

6-8 PSI of boost on a stock supercharger depending on the weather.
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sun May 17, 2015 10:54 am

i've read max efficiency of M90 is 9-11PSI after that it generates too much heat to be worth it?

wondering what would happen if you could push 12-14psi and keep it cool..?

blow out spark plugs or gaskets maybe?
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Sun May 17, 2015 7:53 pm

Efficiency is too vague in reality. There are many relatives. The performance map of the gen5 m90 shows it's the happiest in an island of around 6psi spinning at around 6000rpm but really who cares because it's only pulling in about 300cfm of air then. I run my m90 to 15+psi. It goes like hell all the way up to the 6800rpm or so and the belt doesn't slip so I'm happy with however it's doing it. Like any fluid pump the supercharger's ability to pass more air through it rapidly decays if it's fighting against more head pressure (boost) so that means yes, there is a point where pushing too hard will start reducing peak power no matter how much cooling you have under it. The more fuzzy issues of managing the heat, keeping the belt from slipping, and keeping the blower from dying in a short period of time tend to get in the way before you can really hit that more absolute limit.

The thing about positive displacement blowers is that if you're maxing out its pressure ability, it doesn't matter much if you go bigger in size. The pressure (boost) is a result of the engine resisting that amount of airflow. This means that putting an M112 blower on the same engine because your m90 is maxed out doesn't really work out because you're still gonna hit that same pressure limitation flowing the same air. You only gain a little bit of thermal efficiency up at that point from spinning it slower. On the other hand if you have a different type of blower than can operate at a higher pressure ratio like a TVS or whipple, you can make more power even with a smaller blower provided the engine and blower are happy with the terms. That one regal guy threw an undersized tvs on his L67 and got a nice increase from that.
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PostSubject: Re: FGT supercharger swap project   Tue May 19, 2015 11:57 pm

Cody, why did you decide on an FGT over a TVS, whipple, HTV1900, 2300, etc?

You mustve researched pretty hard before dropping coin?

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