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 Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals

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Rickw
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Dec 27, 2009 8:43 pm

Wouldn't it be easier to hook up the Left and Right wires (Green) from the sequencers (new switch) right at the flasher itself, instead of trying to find the indicator light wires.
Or am I way off base on this.
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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Dec 27, 2009 9:15 pm

All these complications arise from the fact that there are 2 separate sequencers, each running in ignorance of the other... It took me awhile to figure it out, too, especially how the hell that green wire works.

My brother had a chance to study the instructions before Christmas, and he figured out that each green wire commands the sequencer NOT to sequence when it is grounded, thus the 3rd option of grounding them both at the switch, and having all lights behave normally.

Where it gets tricky is when you want the brake lights to work solid, but still have sequential turn signals... When each green is connected to the positive side of each front bulb, they are both getting a ground through the bulb filaments. Thus, when the brake lights trigger the red wires in the rear, both modules light up all 3 bulbs together. When you use a turn signal, both the rear AND front bulbs are getting 12V, so the green control wire is no longer getting ground, and the rear bulbs sequence.

Finally, when you are using a turn signal while you are stepping on the brake, the side that is signaling will sequence, but the brake-only side will still be getting ground at the front bulb & control wire, so it goes on solid...

Whew!
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Rickw
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Dec 27, 2009 9:34 pm

Interesting.
It's a good thing you've documented this info here for the next person who may become totally confused with setting up this system as you have done.
If you weren't using the DPDT switch, where would the Green wires get hooked up to.?
From what I can tell by looking at the diagram, you would still need to run these (green) wires up to the front and tap into the sources you mentioned.
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Eldo
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Dec 27, 2009 9:56 pm

Right, the selector switch is just an option. If you want normal brake lights and sequencing turn signals, you have to run a pair of wires all the way to the dash... (They do include a 2-color joined-pair of wires in the package for this.)

dunce
Oh, and I also failed to actually say what the original "center bulbs" are in each tail light... They are 194's, same as the rear marker lights & the license plate light. That's why the holes have to be carved out to take the 3057/3357 socket.


Last edited by Eldo on Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Eldo
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 10, 2010 5:49 pm

As I'm installing this stuff, it occurs to me that there is yet another option that lets you be incognito, but doesn't require the wire-run to the dashboard...

If you installed everything in the tail light assy, like Turtleman did, you could still connect the two green control leads to a singe wire that runs through the trunk vent to a simple SPST switch connected to ground. With the switch open, everything would sequence, and with the switch closed nothing would sequence... The wires to the dash are only necessary for the "split-mode", where the turn signals sequence but the brake lights don't 'burst'.
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albertj
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyMon Jan 11, 2010 11:18 am

Eldo wrote:
As I'm installing this stuff, it occurs to me that there is yet another option that lets you be incognito, but doesn't require the wire-run to the dashboard...

If you installed everything in the tail light assy, like Turtleman did, you could still connect the two green control leads to a singe wire that runs through the trunk vent to a simple SPST switch connected to ground. With the switch open, everything would sequence, and with the switch closed nothing would sequence... The wires to the dash are only necessary for the "split-mode", where the turn signals sequence but the brake lights don't 'burst'.

Off the top of my head - you could probably ground those lines through the brake switch.

Don't run out and do this because I have not verified it - again it's off the top of my head - but if you connected the two green control leads to a diode that kept current flowing forward (blocking current flowing into the control leads) and then connected that assembly (thru the diode) to the line leading into the brake switch, it should ground the control leads. The loads are not large so any of the 1N4001 through 1N4007-series diodes should work. For your convenience here's a data sheet:

http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/ds28002.pdf

The line going into the brake switch will be 'hot' and without a diode would send current to the green control leads. When you step on the brake switch, the line gets pulled low thru the brake lights, which run to ground. So with the control leads connected thru the diode, the brake light switch controls if the green control leads are grounded. Alternatively one could wire the coil of a relay into the brake light circuit after the brake switch, and run the control leads to ground thru the relay. When brake is applied, control leads are grounded and sequencer is disabled. With brake not applied, control leads are floating and sequencer is on.

It would be a great favor if one of you with good access to the GM parts catalog could see if there is a brake light swithc that could be installed in place of the one we have, which might have an additional circuit. Then the control leads could be run to ground thru the 'unused' circuit in that switch, obviating the need for diode and (possible) relay.

To verify this design I plan to check the timing of activation, and verify just what those control leads are connected to and how the connected circuit works. It may be necessary to install a mechanical or electronic delay in there somewhere, but I don't really know because, again, I have not modeled it yet. Wiring a relay in series in the appropriate place might be enough to get enough delay if needed. Further complicating this is I don't have the schematic for the sequencer. Much further complicating this is that I don't think it will put the sequencer in-circuit when the brake lights are applied *and* the turn signal is on.

Concerning what Rickw wrote about wiring to the flasher, answer is 'almost.' The turn signal lever puts current to the right or left turn signals, *through* the flasher. There is only 1 flasher and 2 banks of turn signals. I'd have to wire a relay in there such that when I send current to the flasher the relay coil is activated and the control lead gets grounded. In order to figure out if this will work I have to model the circuit to behave the way I want if the brake lights are applied and the turn signal is activated.

Who can provide the needed info so I can finish solving this electrical engineering?

Albertj
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Eldo
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyTue Jan 12, 2010 2:05 am

Interesting Albert, but I think the diode you're speaking of is built into the modules, and indeed is how they work.

My last comment was only that I realized the physical run to the dash was unnecessary if you only desired "Plan C". But if you're going to the dash anyway, the wires to the front turn signals are right next to the brake switches.

However, I think your alternate idea just might be a Plan D... If you tied the green leads together and connected the wire to a relay in the trunk, thru the vent by the antenna, they could be grounded by triggering the relay from the positive side of the CHMSL. The difference from Plan B is that both sides would stop sequencing whenever the brake was applied while a turn signal was on, instead of solid brake on one side and sequencing on the side that's turning...

My head is starting to hurt... sick

But they're working!
I still have to put the rest of the car back together, but I've got the new sockets soldered into the tail light harness, a hacked turn-signal flasher giving me the speed I want, and all three of the options are working thru the selector switch in my diagram - All Normal, All Sequencing, and Turn Sequencing with Normal Brakes... I took some pix that I'll add to a later post.
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Rickw
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyTue Jan 12, 2010 12:50 pm

So how did the modified Brake Lever turn out.?
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Eldo
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyTue Jan 12, 2010 1:41 pm

I honestly haven't driven it more than 100' yet, but along with the turn signal pictures,
I also took a couple of before & after pix of the pedals that I posted in the original thread.
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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyFri Jan 15, 2010 3:50 am

Well, I've kibitzed about these sequencers enough, it's time to add my own experience... First, the tail light housing.

My brother gave me the sequencers for Christmas, and while I was up there for the weekend we went out to the garage and performed the surgery on the middle-bulb socket holes. It took us a few trials & errors with paint, lipstick, etc. before we came up with a good idea (actually 2 combined good ideas) for copying the pattern from the outermost lamp to the middle one.

I chose to directly copy the outer ones because then the wires will be pointing inward, the way you want them. My idea was to cut a 'negative' of the outer hole using 2" blue painter's tape (the good, stronger stuff.) By firmly and tautly applying the tape across the original hole, you can make a pretty clean cut with an Xacto knife. The key is to plunge the knife in at the tightest points, like the corners of each tab-notch, and then the middle of each sector of the main hole.

After I transferred my negative to the middle hole, my brother had the 2nd good idea: using a permanent marker to make a 'positive' on the plastic itself and then tossing the tape. This way, you can't accidentally grind away the tape with the Dremel drum or cutting wheel, and lose your place... when you run out of black ink, you're done. And as Rick mentioned, not having a locking post is no problem. The aftermarket Pico sockets I bought have even thicker gaskets on them than the OEM sockets...


Here's the end result:

Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 4275131347_2553462729
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Eldo
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyFri Jan 15, 2010 4:38 am

Now the rest of the wiring...

As I said in my schematic post, I wanted to have most of the system out of the weather for longevity and so I could use quick & easy crimp connectors & ScotchLoks. As you can see below, everything except the 2 lamp cords at the upper left, which carry the white & blue circuits to the tail lights, is under the left rear seat. The weird 'loop' arrangement of the modules is because I was going to leave them wrapped around the bottom of the seatbelt, then thought better of it...

Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 4275877690_aba83da58c

On the lower right you can see the red/brown pair of wires coming in from the front turn signal wires under the dash, and beneath it the blue wire attached to the factory grounding lug that I I used to feed the black module leads and 2 terminals on the selector switch. The switch then feeds the green leads on the modules, and the red leads are fed from the red & blue ScotchLoks tapping into the rear turn signal circuits on top of that big wiring bundle.



The selector switch is mounted to the lower seat support where it curves downward toward the floor pan...

Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 4275877414_3ba8c0f251_m

and can be flipped when getting into the car, or even reaching back with your left hand while driving.

Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 4275877476_909ef6d350_m



With the seat-back off, it's very easy to fish the zip-cords into the right side of the trunk and run them through the same clips that hold the antenna and compressor wiring. I was going to run them through the compressor grommet, but that sucker has NO extra room in the existing hole, and is very hard to add a hole to. So, I figured that the flaps on the flow-through vent are open whenever the climate control is running with the windows up, anyway... I flattened out the zip-cords and found the right studs/posts to hook them around so that they run nicely through a corner of one flap, barely lifting it:

Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 4275877760_e116a300b7



This last one isn't a great picture. It's my overkill way of connecting the 4 wires that are outdoors... I slice a butt connector and pull the barrel out of it. Then I twist the wires together and insert them into one side of the barrel, while heating it with a torch and feeding solder into the other end of the barrel. If you only have 2 hands, this is much easier than doing the connections "inline", and if you overheat and split the shrink-tubing (yellow,) you don't have to undo the connection to put on another piece...

Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 4275131085_e2c6314e1e



Finally, the results - cycling through from Normal, to Turn Sequencing, to Brake-light Burst and back.

http://flickr.com/gp/24229483@N07/1895i0

(I don't recall if I ended up using the 'easier' 552 flasher or the 323, but either way I only used a $2 thermal flasher and adjusted it to get the best "flowing effect" from one bulb to the next... I posted a short tutorial on Page 12.)
.


Last edited by Eldo on Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:35 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Eldo
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 16, 2010 4:39 pm

I just reread this whole thread and have a quick question for Turtleman or AA... On your original ThunderCats kits, what kind of 'special' flasher did they send you?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 17, 2010 10:11 am


_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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Eldo
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 17, 2010 7:37 pm

AA wrote:
It's an HD relay type, like this: http://www.wellgainelectronics.com/tridonel12flasherrelay.aspx

Oh, so it's electromechanical instead of thermal... How is/was the timing with your sequencer(s)?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 17, 2010 7:42 pm

I never tried using the OEM flasher with the sequencer (swapped the relay falsher in), but I did notice the OEM hazard flasher (not replaced) flashed at a faster rate and eventually caused the flasher to make a loud noise - until it burnt out. Replaced with relay type and fine so far.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Rickw
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 17, 2010 7:46 pm

Mine is quite quick, with the supplied "electronic" HD Flasher that was supplied with the Kit.
I have noticed if the voltage is higher the flasher flashes Slower.
In other words, with the normal rate of charge on the Riv at idle (Low) , at idle the flasher flash's too fast and if you put it in neutral (higher alternator output) at a stop with your turn signal on it flashes at a more normal speed, so instead of changing the flasher yet, I've become accustomed to putting it in neutral at long stoplights that i have the turn signal on and increasing the RPM slightly.
It has become a voltmeter of sorts for me.
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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 17, 2010 8:06 pm

That's weird - slower flash with higher voltage... Must be something inherent to RC-circuits that I've forgotten.

When I was looking at AA's link and the other pages I googled for EL-12 info, it did occur to me that one could probably get a small, PC-board type trim-pot and make the EL-12 into an adjustable flasher for a lot less than the $40+ they charge for the adjustable electronic ones... You could even tape the terminals & leave it hanging down so you've got more slack than that short pigtail the flasher is on.
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AA
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 17, 2010 8:16 pm

I don't notice very much change in frequency with my relay flasher between N and D.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Rickw
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 17, 2010 8:23 pm

Maybe I just had more of a problem with my Alternator output voltage at idle in gear, about 650RPM.,
I added the #4 AWG wire from my Alt. output to the Battery terminal under the hood and have found since then (the month or so) that I have much more stable voltage at idle. But if I put it in neutral and raise the RPM's I can get a different speed or frequency out of my turn signals.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 17, 2010 8:25 pm

Must be because my idle RPM setting is higher. There's less difference between N and D at idle.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Rickw
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 17, 2010 8:36 pm

Must Be.
That's only one reason I would like to increase my Idle RPM in Drive from 650 RPM to at least 750 RPM.
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SCbuick010
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyThu Apr 15, 2010 4:05 am

hey i was gonna order some sequential turn signals from foxthundercats.com but i think their site is down or something. Does anybody know where else to get some?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyThu Apr 15, 2010 7:49 am


_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
Back to top Go down
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Sweepspear
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyThu Apr 15, 2010 9:49 am

SCbuick010 wrote:
hey i was gonna order some sequential turn signals from foxthundercats.com but i think their site is down or something. Does anybody know where else to get some?

This link was posted earlier. Looks like a better kit than the Thundercats unit was.
http://www.webelectricproducts.com./

The STS Universal kit looks like the one to get.
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Eldo
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Eldo

Name : Mark
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 EmptyThu Apr 15, 2010 7:31 pm

At the beginning of this thread Turtleman installed the Fox unit, then later on converted to the WebElectrics after Fox went out of business... I installed the WebElectrics recently with a selector switch, starting on page 12.
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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals   Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals - Page 8 Empty

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Write-Up: Sequential Turn Signals
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