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 More non-start - my Riv's specialty!

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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:12 pm

Digital Volt/Ohm Meter, yes. You don't need Ohms for any of this. Just used to calling it that.

So, on the schematic, they call it a Start Enable Relay. In GM parts catalog, it's called a Theft Deterrent Relay. Idiots....

GM P/N 12177233
 ~$50  It has some sort of resistor in it according to the parts catalog. That's prolly why it's so much loot.

I'm sure you can find one cheaper.
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:09 pm

Final round of testing (I hope!) -

C2, relay removed - 11.8 volts

Put the relay back in and - the car has started four times in a row, no problem!

I suppose that means the voltage at C2 and A1 with the plug installed is in the 12 volt range (or 11.8). I attempted to test them but the car starts so fast it's impossible to get a reading. I saw 12 volt fly by as the car started, or at least I think I did.

What conclusions can we draw from this?



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flyineagle96
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sun May 01, 2016 2:54 pm

Answer, she breaths!! yay
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Mon May 02, 2016 7:40 am

Well yes but I need to know if the problem was the starter relay or not before I go buy another starter relay.

I am really thrilled to hear her start again though.
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Mon May 02, 2016 8:47 am

Jack the R wrote:
What conclusions can we draw from this?

Well, there was either some minor fretting on the terminals, or the relay was stuck (probably). I've had relays get stuck before. Sometimes a little whack will get them working again. However, it will eventually go completely bad and not work at all.

To give you a better idea of it, it probably looks like what our window switch contacts do when they're about to fail. Just a bunch of carbon buildup....Hell, if you can, get the lid off of that relay and have a look. If it's nasty, try and clean it. If not, replace it.
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue May 03, 2016 12:27 am

I'll pull it apart and see what it looks like, but it's absolutely getting replaced. This non-start business is going to break me.

O'Reilly's says they have a replacement ignition relay for $13 -

Link

Can't beat the price if it will work, but the pic doesn't match.
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue May 03, 2016 10:06 am

I don't think that's the relay you need. It does have a resistor in it, so it's a specific relay.

http://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com/products/BRACKET-CONNECTOR-MODULE-RELAY-RELAY-KIT/2605174/12177233.html

Or cheaper on Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OEM-GM-ABS-Anti-Lock-Brake-Relay-12177233-/172080145262?hash=item2810c6a36e:g:eGQAAOSwFqJWif0I&vxp=mtr
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue May 03, 2016 11:02 am

Abaddon wrote:
I don't think that's the relay you need. It does have a resistor in it, so it's a specific relay.

http://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com/products/BRACKET-CONNECTOR-MODULE-RELAY-RELAY-KIT/2605174/12177233.html

Or cheaper on Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OEM-GM-ABS-Anti-Lock-Brake-Relay-12177233-/172080145262?hash=item2810c6a36e:g:eGQAAOSwFqJWif0I&vxp=mtr


...you guys didnt ask for my $0.02 so I'll keep this short and say you don't want to throw money down a rathole BUT don't cheap out on electrical parts. Especially on the electrically fickle Riv.

That said the 12177233 relay is used on many GM cars and in many systems not just ignition IIRC. The difference you are seeing probably is there is a version that has the same pinout but no skirt. The nonskirted version goes for as little as $3.00 on RockAuto.Com -- Get the one with the skirt so the sucker stays on and does not vibrate loose. I think you're fine for the best one you can get under $30. And they are all under $30...


For the rest of you - next time you are at the pick and pull, you might want to grab a fistful of these relays for eventual replacement -- just take the ones with the right number 12177233 from a circuit that does not get used so much like the radiator fan versus the ignition. You will be able to tell from teh legend on the fuse panel. The yard guys at the picknpull won't charge you very much if anything for the miscellaneous electricals, and you will get an OE relay that will work a very long time. The top price ones from Standard and Airtex are actually ZETTLER relay, a good line AFAIK. I don't know who's selling a BOSCH or KOITO relay.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue May 03, 2016 12:28 pm

Abaddon wrote:
I don't think that's the relay you need. It does have a resistor in it, so it's a specific relay.

http://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com/products/BRACKET-CONNECTOR-MODULE-RELAY-RELAY-KIT/2605174/12177233.html

Or cheaper on Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OEM-GM-ABS-Anti-Lock-Brake-Relay-12177233-/172080145262?hash=item2810c6a36e:g:eGQAAOSwFqJWif0I&vxp=mtr

Are these the same part, or is the cheap one missing something like the skirt AlbertJ mentioned?
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue May 03, 2016 1:06 pm

Both links I posted are the same part. They both have the same P/N, just from different stores. As albert said, that relay is used in more than one location on the car. The "skirt" is there to protect the connector from the elements.
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu May 05, 2016 4:11 pm

Does the eBay listing come up often? I thought OEM.bay would relist, but, not yet . . .
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu May 05, 2016 8:51 pm

Jack the R wrote:
Does the eBay listing come up often?  I thought OEM.bay would relist, but, not yet . . .


just

get

it

from

rockauto


bounce bounce

they have them from a couple bucks to 30
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu May 05, 2016 9:42 pm

I dunno, under "ignition relay" RockAuto has the AIRTEX / WELLS 1R1085 and AIRTEX / WELLS 2N3.

The info on the 1R1085 doesn't list it as a replacement for the GM 12177233.  The info on 2N3 doesn't say.

@ $5 the price is great but my spider sense is telling me something is wrong here. dunno
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu May 05, 2016 10:45 pm

Please, please do not stray away from the GM (Delco) part. If you can find one that matches the 12177233, cool. If it doesn't say it matches specifically, don't try it. It's not a "normal" relay like the ones they use for Fuel Pumps and Headlights....
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Fri May 06, 2016 7:45 am

Abaddon wrote:
I don't think that's the relay you need. It does have a resistor in it, so it's a specific relay.

http://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com/products/BRACKET-CONNECTOR-MODULE-RELAY-RELAY-KIT/2605174/12177233.html

$51.70 shipped. afraid

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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Wed May 11, 2016 9:25 pm

Jack the R wrote:
I dunno, under "ignition relay" RockAuto has the AIRTEX / WELLS 1R1085 and AIRTEX / WELLS 2N3.

The info on the 1R1085 doesn't list it as a replacement for the GM 12177233.  The info on 2N3 doesn't say.

@ $5 the price is great but my spider sense is telling me something is wrong here. dunno

they had more than that. try using their part number lookup feature.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu May 12, 2016 10:38 am

I tried, the only thing that comes up is a blower motor relay.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu May 12, 2016 3:16 pm

Amazon says Fan Relay,

http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-12177233-Fan-Control-Relay/dp/B000QIY804

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/oe-gm/12177233

http://paceperformance.com/i-7138259-12177233-relay.html

http://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com/products/BRACKET-CONNECTOR-MODULE-RELAY-RELAY-KIT/2605174/12177233.html

http://www.yoyopart.com/oem/12459947/gm-12177233.html

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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu May 12, 2016 5:08 pm

My relay came in today - how do you remove the old relay? I've wiggled it around a bit but it isn't clear how it comes out.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu May 12, 2016 10:42 pm

Jack the R wrote:
My relay came in today - how do you remove the old relay?  I've wiggled it around a bit but it isn't clear how it comes out.

I think the OE relay is "skirted" so you'll have to work it until the pins at the base (they stick out into the skirt) are worked around. Think of it this way. The relay is not supposed to vibrate loose. That's why you use a skirted relay for the ignition application and that also is why it is not easy to pull off.

That said, it just pulls off. Go back out and fiddle with it until you get it off.

pimp

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Fri May 13, 2016 8:26 am

It should have a locking tab on it. The kind you have to push down to release. It isn't going to be easy. The link that Larry posted from Amazon shows the female end of the lock perfectly. Those things are made with extremely tight tolerances and the plastic gets hard over time. It usually takes me a pocket screwdriver or a pick to get them to slide out. You have a new relay, so I would just break the top half of the lock off of the old relay. Make life a lot easier.

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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Fri May 13, 2016 1:25 pm

Abaddon wrote:
It should have a locking tab on it. The kind you have to push down to release. It isn't going to be easy. The link that Larry posted from Amazon shows the female end of the lock perfectly. Those things are made with extremely tight tolerances and the plastic gets hard over time. It usually takes me a pocket screwdriver or a pick to get them to slide out. You have a new relay, so I would just break the top half of the lock off of the old relay. Make life a lot easier.




Just so there's no confusion, the item in the pic is the starter relay.  There's the wire bundle, which I've removed, then there's the starter relay.  I'm trying to remove the starter relay.

The starter relay appears to slide over a metal clip, which is somehow mounted to a white nylon plastic piece.

I've stuck a screwdriver up into the space between the starter relay and the metal clip, and between the metal clip and the white nylon piece, and pried a few different ways.  It looks like the metal clip has to be released but I haven't managed to randomly hit on the release mechanism yet.  

If it comes to it I'll crush the old relay and take it off in pieces, but it would be nice to get it off in one piece so I can examine it and see what went wrong.

Incidentally, these new black relays have an extra pin in them.  You can see it in the pic Abaddon linked, it's the middle pin on the bottom row.  The original starter relay doesn't have a middle pin.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Wed May 18, 2016 1:51 am

Jack the R wrote:

Abaddon wrote:
It should have a locking tab on it. The kind you have to push down to release. It isn't going to be easy. The link that Larry posted from Amazon shows the female end of the lock perfectly. Those things are made with extremely tight tolerances and the plastic gets hard over time. It usually takes me a pocket screwdriver or a pick to get them to slide out. You have a new relay, so I would just break the top half of the lock off of the old relay. Make life a lot easier.





Just so there's no confusion, the item in the pic is the starter relay.  There's the wire bundle, which I've removed, then there's the starter relay.  I'm trying to remove the starter relay.

The starter relay appears to slide over a metal clip, which is somehow mounted to a white nylon plastic piece.

I've stuck a screwdriver up into the space between the starter relay and the metal clip, and between the metal clip and the white nylon piece, and pried a few different ways.  It looks like the metal clip has to be released but I haven't managed to randomly hit on the release mechanism yet.  

If it comes to it I'll crush the old relay and take it off in pieces, but it would be nice to get it off in one piece so I can examine it and see what went wrong.

Incidentally, these new black relays have an extra pin in them.  You can see it in the pic Abaddon linked, it's the middle pin on the bottom row.  The original starter relay doesn't have a middle pin.

These relays are standard and widely used, you'll see those terminal numbers embossed on many different ones. IIRC it's a Bosch or some such convention that everyone uses, and the numbers will be molded into the base next to the corresponding pins. They are used for alarm, fan, ignition, and many other applications. The ones for ignition applications are usually robust enough to be on continuously.

Again I'm serious - you wont have to break the relay but will have to mess with it for a while to get it off thebase. Use the pick or small (jewelers/mini) screwdriver to get the clip around the tab that's molded into the base. The clip will bend outward a little. For the dead relay it's no big deal to break that clip by getting the screwdriver under it and twisting. That may actually stretch the plastic enough so you can pull it off.

Again, use one with a clip as a replacement, you don't want it coming off by itself for any reason at any time.

Albertj

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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Wed May 18, 2016 2:32 pm

I replaced the relay yesterday and have the Riv running great again.  

I had no trouble removing the wire bundle from the old starter relay, but had to destroy the old relay to get it out from under the dash.  Going by what I saw, I don't believe the relay was designed to be removed or replaced.  Since mine went at 93,200, that's obviously a bad idea, but it's what GM did.  The starter relay slides very tightly onto a metal tab that looks like it wraps around a nylon peg.  It looks like, if you pulled on the relay hard enough, it'd break the peg before it came off the metal tab.  

I broke my old relay out in pieces until I got it down to just the back part of the casing stuck on the metal tab.  Prying the last of the casing off bent the metal tab.  I couldn't get the new starter relay on the metal tab.  I'm not sure I could have done it if the tab were straight.  Maybe it would be easier to work under there with the driver's seat out, but it may be altogether impossible to get the relay on the tab.  There's not much room to work in that area.  

In the end I zip tied the wire bundle to another wire bundle, and that's all the support I've got for the relay.  I think it will be fine.  If I had to do it again, I wouldn't bother trying to remove the old relay.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Mon May 23, 2016 2:42 pm

Jack the R wrote:
I replaced the relay yesterday and have the Riv running great again.  

I had no trouble removing the wire bundle from the old starter relay, but had to destroy the old relay to get it out from under the dash.  Going by what I saw, I don't believe the relay was designed to be removed or replaced.  Since mine went at 93,200, that's obviously a bad idea, but it's what GM did.  The starter relay slides very tightly onto a metal tab that looks like it wraps around a nylon peg.  It looks like, if you pulled on the relay hard enough, it'd break the peg before it came off the metal tab.  

I broke my old relay out in pieces until I got it down to just the back part of the casing stuck on the metal tab.  Prying the last of the casing off bent the metal tab.  I couldn't get the new starter relay on the metal tab.  I'm not sure I could have done it if the tab were straight.  Maybe it would be easier to work under there with the driver's seat out, but it may be altogether impossible to get the relay on the tab.  There's not much room to work in that area.  

In the end I zip tied the wire bundle to another wire bundle, and that's all the support I've got for the relay.  I think it will be fine.  If I had to do it again, I wouldn't bother trying to remove the old relay.

Sorry for your troubles.
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