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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Tick tick tick    Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:52 pm

I've been trying to track this down for months.  It sounds like it's coming from the supercharger idler pulley.  The pulley in the video is new - I replaced one that had a very visible wobble.  That pulley was also "newish," with 5000-8000 on it.  This one has no more than a few hundred on it and appears to be developing a wobble.

I may be way off though.  I also recorded the exhaust.  There are a few clanks in there I don't know about - I'm hoping it's the exhaust expanding and not something going horribly wrong in the engine.  It isn't timed to the tick tick tick under the hood.

The engine runs strong and smooth and if I wasn't listening for developing problems I'd have no idea anything was wrong.

One more "clue," the tick tick tick isn't noticeable until the engine has warmed up.



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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:58 pm

One way to eliminate the pulleys is to remove the belts, start it up and see how it sounds. Also while the belt is off see if the pulleys have any play to them which would indicate a bad bearing.

Note: Don't run it for very long as the water pump and alternator will not be hooked up.
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:23 am

It's the idler pulley on the SC belt. That's two bad ones in a row then. Is anyone else having a problem with these or am I just lucky like that?

I'd still like to know if there's a potential issue with the occasional clanking in the exhaust vid. I'm going to guess not, it's probably just the exhaust expanding. But there's far more to know about cars than what I know.
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:05 pm

Does that s/c tensioner have any play that it shouldn't when you move it? Tighten it and loosen it a bit while idling to see how it moves and how the symptom responds. That noise reminds me of when that chick shoves her shoe into the fan to stop it in idle hands (and then later the severed hand yanks the shoe out and the fan kills her) Kinda creepin me out a little crazy
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:16 pm

Jack the R wrote:
It's the idler pulley on the SC belt.  That's two bad ones in a row then.  Is anyone else having a problem with these or am I just lucky like that?

I'd still like to know if there's a potential issue with the occasional clanking in the exhaust vid.  I'm going to guess not, it's probably just the exhaust expanding.  But there's far more to know about cars than what I know.  

Consider NOT buyin' dirt-rip idler pullies this time when you replace it. twisted

Or get a fistful of pick-n-pull junkyard pullies. People don't junk their cars over those pullies, many if not most are good, you can pretty much tell by turning them on the car engine before you pull them. If you buy 3 you should get 1-2 very good ones. And the yard clerk will not charge you much, may not charge you at all for them. Granted, I would probably NOT buy a tensioner from junkyard because it's too tough to tell how much life is left in the tension spring (if you had to you could use a beefy pull spring balance to figure it out).
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:46 pm

turtleman wrote:
Does that s/c tensioner have any play that it shouldn't when you move it? Tighten it and loosen it a bit while idling to see how it moves and how the symptom responds. That noise reminds me of when that chick shoves her shoe into the fan to stop it in idle hands (and then later the severed hand yanks the shoe out and the fan kills her) Kinda creepin me out a little crazy

I'll give it a try tomorrow but I don't think the tensioner is the problem. It has plenty of resistance when I push it down to get the belt off.

albertj - They were both new from NAPA. The last one (on the car ATM) cost me $30.



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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:13 am

turtleman wrote:
Does that s/c tensioner have any play that it shouldn't when you move it?

I've tried to wiggle the tensioner and it's solid as can be.
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:06 am

Jack the R wrote:

turtleman wrote:
Does that s/c tensioner have any play that it shouldn't when you move it?


I've tried to wiggle the tensioner and it's solid as can be.  

I looked at the video again. I think maybe it's the belt. freak

Watch your own video. The pulley tracks arrow straight. The fap fap fap sound is in time with the belt oscillation left to right and back.

Pull the belt and bend it backwards on itself, look for cracks in the rubber. Also inspect for a problem at the belt's seam.

Yeah I think your belt is wack.

I replaced my belts with Gatorbacks so long ago it's embarrasing. Except for the Gatorback whine from new, it's been a LONG time and there's no end-of-life issues yet. Maybe I better check them, thinking about it, I replaced those things sometime in '11 and we're pushing '17...

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:26 pm

albertj wrote:

Jack the R wrote:


turtleman wrote:
Does that s/c tensioner have any play that it shouldn't when you move it?



I've tried to wiggle the tensioner and it's solid as can be.  


I looked at the video again. I think maybe it's the belt.  freak

Watch your own video.  The pulley tracks arrow straight.  The fap fap fap sound  is in time with the belt oscillation left to right and back.

Pull the belt and bend it backwards on itself, look for cracks in the rubber. Also inspect for a problem at the belt's seam.

Yeah I think your belt is wack.

I replaced my belts with Gatorbacks so long ago it's embarrasing.  Except for the Gatorback whine from new, it's been a LONG time and there's no end-of-life issues yet.  Maybe I better check them, thinking about it, I replaced those things sometime in '11 and we're pushing '17...

Albertj

Hmm, I hadn't considered the belt. I had been thinking the pulley must be rotating faster than the tick tick tick suggests, which would suggest it's the belt instead. I wonder why the sound would localize on the idler pulley? I've used a garden hose to track the sound down - it's definitely coming from that area.

I hadn't considered the age of the belts. The mileage is less than 10,000, but the age is around ten years.
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:12 pm

Jack the R wrote:

albertj wrote:


Jack the R wrote:



turtleman wrote:
Does that s/c tensioner have any play that it shouldn't when you move it?




I've tried to wiggle the tensioner and it's solid as can be.  



I looked at the video again. I think maybe it's the belt.  freak

Watch your own video.  The pulley tracks arrow straight.  The fap fap fap sound  is in time with the belt oscillation left to right and back.

Pull the belt and bend it backwards on itself, look for cracks in the rubber. Also inspect for a problem at the belt's seam.

Yeah I think your belt is wack.

I replaced my belts with Gatorbacks so long ago it's embarrasing.  Except for the Gatorback whine from new, it's been a LONG time and there's no end-of-life issues yet.  Maybe I better check them, thinking about it, I replaced those things sometime in '11 and we're pushing '17...

Albertj


Hmm, I hadn't considered the belt.  I had been thinking the pulley must be rotating faster than the tick tick tick suggests, which would suggest it's the belt instead.  I wonder why the sound would localize on the idler pulley?  I've used a garden hose to track the sound down - it's definitely coming from that area.

I hadn't considered the age of the belts.  The mileage is less than 10,000, but the age is around ten years.  

The sound would localize on the pulley because your metal idler pulley is like a bell. Ever whack one with a belt off? it rings. When your wonky belt tries to go of rack the ribs snap on the pulley grooves and it pings (ticks because the ring is muted by the belt.)

Consider replacing the belt. Even the cheapest RockAuto belt would be better than the old belt, it just wont last as long as say a Gatorback or a Dayco PolyCog. And you don't want to risk the old belt just snapping at the point that it is ticking... do you?

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:24 pm

albertj wrote:




The sound would localize on the pulley because your metal idler pulley is like a bell.  


Pretty sure that pulley is plastic. There's a metal, smooth one towards the center of the engine which the belt is also wobbling on. I haven't heard a tick there, but it seems more likely that the problem is with one belt than two new or newish pulleys.


albertj wrote:

Consider replacing the belt. Even the cheapest RockAuto belt would be better than the old belt, it just wont last as long as say a Gatorback or a Dayco PolyCog. And you don't want to risk the old belt just snapping at the point that it is ticking... do you?

Albertj

I'll get a new gatorback. The last time I ordered another brand's SC belt they sent one that was too short.
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:34 pm

I just watched this. The belt is moving side-to-side in correspondence with the noise. You can see the belt "smacking" the side of the pulley.....
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:49 pm

On second thought, maybe I don't want another gatorback.

Can anyone vouch for any of the quality belts on RockAuto actually fitting the Riv?  I need the supercharger belt for a 97. I don't need to buy economy.



Abaddon wrote:
I just watched this. The belt is moving side-to-side in correspondence with the noise. You can see the belt "smacking" the side of the pulley.....



Have you ever seen a belt go bad like this before?
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:25 am

Jack the R wrote:
Have you ever seen a belt go bad like this before?

It happens, I guess? It is possible that there's a broken ribbon or two inside the belt itself.
Normally a belt doesn't shift side-to-side like that on its own. There might be a different underlying issue that's causing that to happen. I'd pay close attention to the rest of the pulleys with the car running to see if any of them are wobbling.
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:55 am

Jack the R wrote:
On second thought, maybe I don't want another gatorback.

Can anyone vouch for any of the quality belts on RockAuto actually fitting the Riv?  I need the supercharger belt for a 97. I don't need to buy economy.





Abaddon wrote:
I just watched this. The belt is moving side-to-side in correspondence with the noise. You can see the belt "smacking" the side of the pulley.....





Have you ever seen a belt go bad like this before?


I think your alternator is chirping, might have a developing issue with the bearings.

I looked at the rockauto web site.  It's pretty funny - the "economy" and "good" belts cost about the same, any of them shoud be fine.  The "economy" belts have a durability disclaimer. I've had Gatorbacks on for a long time now with no end in sight, that would now be Continental Elite (they bought the Goodyear belt ops).    For your application I'd probably get the Dayco PolyV and I'd think about replacing the tensioner.


Last edited by albertj on Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:41 am

Abaddon wrote:

I'd pay close attention to the rest of the pulleys with the car running to see if any of them are wobbling.


None of them have more than a few thousand on them, maybe that doesn't mean anything . . .



Abaddon wrote:
Your alternator is chirping, might have a developing issue with the bearings.  


I noticed.  It doesn't have more than a few hundred miles on it. headbutt
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:53 am

Jack the R wrote:

Abaddon wrote:

I'd pay close attention to the rest of the pulleys with the car running to see if any of them are wobbling.



None of them have more than a few thousand on them, maybe that doesn't mean anything . . .




Abaddon wrote:
Your alternator is chirping, might have a developing issue with the bearings.  



I noticed.  It doesn't have more than a few hundred miles on it. headbutt

I currently have an AC Delco reman alternator on that chirped within a few months of install, did for several months (I delayed replacement for no good reason), then the chirping went away and I have not touched it since (50,000+ miles)...
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:44 pm

I replaced the tensioner pulley today. So far that appears to have stopped the tick tick tick, but the belt is still wobbling around. I'm not sure what to think about that. Now that the weather has cooled down I may need to let it run longer to get the ticking going. I've got a new SC belt coming so I'll go ahead and put that on and see if it tracks straighter.
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:37 pm

If the belt is wobbling side to side, it's a pulley alignment or tensioner issue. I wouldn't put a new belt on until you find the source of the misalignment, and likely the noise.

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'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:11 am

I've put the new SC tensioner and belt on.  I put the new tensioner on first.  The ticking went away but the belt was still wobbling around.  I put the new belt on and it's tracking straight.  Problem solved?

Here is a pic of the scale on the new SC tensioner -



And here is the accessory tensioner -



The reading is a little different! scratch

I'm not currently seeing or hearing a problem with the accessory belt, but perhaps the accessory tensioner is on its way out too?

I'm beginning to think tensioners should be replaced when the pulleys are replaced.  The SC tensioner I bought came with both pulleys on it, so when you figure in the retail cost of the pulleys, the tensioner is nearly free.  Or, when you figure the two new idler pulleys I bought and the SC belt the old tensioner ruined, I lost a good chunk of change by not replacing the SC tensioner with the pulleys.  Plus the time to do the belt change over again . . .

One other thing I'm wondering about - the acc tensioner pulley spins freely with the belt off.  The new SC tensioner pulley takes a little force.  Not enough that I'm sure there's something wrong with it, but you can't spin it and watch it coast around a few times before stopping. If it takes a different amount of force to turn each pulley, wouldn't that eventually wear out the belt?
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:35 am

The belt won't wear out from the force required to spin the idler/tensioner pulleys. Remember the force required to spin the blower, alternator, water pump, etc. is far greater. I also wouldn't worry if these pulleys don't spin freely (I'd expect an older one to spin easier than one with new bearings freshly packed grease, not "broken in").

When I replaced my tensioners, I remember replacing the included pulleys with the better quality ones I'd previously replaced. Kept the cheaper ones around as replacements, but they seemed to be a lower grade imo.

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'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:34 am

I'd noticed that different manufacturers use different types of bearings in the middles of the pullies. Some are dry ball bearing pullies and they spin freely. My guess is the others are lubed and sealed sleeve or rollers and they don't spin freely. I would not dwell on that. On a 95 Lincoln I had, the pulley that was toughest to get to was the dry ball bearing type and spun very easily. Many years ago I had a problem with SC idler pulley on my Riv, the dealer replaced a plastic pulley with a steel one that had the ball bearings. IIRC it was either a Ford P/N or a Chevy P/N for accessory idler for "severe service" (police).

Replacing tensioners as you state may be good PM. I confess that I have not looked at my tensioners hard since I put on the Gatorbacks some years ago. Hmmm.... they do slacken over time.
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:39 pm

AA wrote:

When I replaced my tensioners, I remember replacing the included pulleys with the better quality ones I'd previously replaced. Kept the cheaper ones around as replacements, but they seemed to be a lower grade imo.


I'll have to compare sometime.  I noticed the pulley that came with the SC tensioner, the tensioner pulley, is a different design than the one on the old tensioner.  I'm not sure the two pulleys are interchangeable.  It looks like the bolts may be different sizes, but I won't know without pulling them off.

albertj wrote:


Replacing tensioners as you state may be good PM. I confess that I have not looked at my tensioners hard since I put on the Gatorbacks some years ago. Hmmm.... they do slacken over time.

Yeah and they take a belt and a few hours of your time with them mad
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:44 pm

Quote :
I'll have to compare sometime. I noticed the pulley that came with the SC tensioner, the tensioner pulley, is a different design than the one on the old tensioner. I'm not sure the two pulleys are interchangeable. It looks like the bolts may be different sizes, but I won't know without pulling them off.

I hope they're interchangeable. That's really the idea with replaceable parts, right? If your old pulley doesn't fit the new tensioner, then it's the wrong tensioner. If you ever need to replace the tensioner pulley, the parts counter will sell you one that fits the OEM tensioner design. Otherwise you'll need to purchase a complete tensioner assembly to replace that pulley (not how it should work).

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Tick tick tick    Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:20 am

AA wrote:

If your old pulley doesn't fit the new tensioner, then it's the wrong tensioner.

My thermistor didn't fit my new positive battery cable, but it was the one Rock Auto sold as a replacement. The new cable clearly had no provision for the thermistor.

My theory is that part manufacturers have reached the point of total whatevs with the 8th gen Riv. There aren't enough left to be worth the effort, so we'll get what we get.
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