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 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.

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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:40 pm

Driving last night With the car shut down at the top of 2nd/start of 3rd.
Had it towed home and been trying to fix it since.

It cranks strong but will not start. Has 1/2 a tank.
Fuel pump primes every time. Replaced it 6mo ago with Delco unit.
Can't measure pressure at rail but sprays a good 4-5 feet key on lol.
Spark plugs #1/3/5 all look good. Dry.
Swapped out ICM and all coils.
Ran for a second on starter fluid.
Injector #1 has 12v to it. Haven't checked the rest.
Seems like something is keeping the injectors from pulsing.
Security light is not on.
Thought maybe crank position sensor but everyone is telling me it won't run on starter fluid with a bad cpk or have spark.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.


Last edited by Mr.Riviera on Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:07 pm

My mechanic buddy seems to think ECU now. Anyone ever seen a PCM/ECU go bad all of a sudden on a 96+ riv?

Rented noid light and didn't light up when cranking.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:21 pm

when the crank position sensor fails, sometimes it works intermittently. And I wonder if compression was enough to detonate the starter fluid... probably not.

Interestin' problem, have to think about this one.
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:29 pm

Pulled spark plugs and cranked with them out of the car and they all popped.

Do you know if a bad ckp will result in no injector pulse?

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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th3fr4nchi5e
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:52 pm

I just replaced my Crank Pos Sensor less than a year ago and I do not believe there was any injector pulse. Definitely no spark. Mine didnt die while driving. I woke up to a no start and no codes or anything. changed the ICM and PCM first since I already had spares laying around and no change. New Crank pos sensor and started right up. It has to reference either the cam or crank sensor for injector pulse. I would bet against PCM. I've never heard of a PCM failure not accompanied by warning with electrical issues leading up to it.
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:51 pm

Replaced the crank position sensor and still won't start.

Guess I'm buying a new PCM unless someone has another idea.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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th3fr4nchi5e
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:54 pm

Cam sensor?
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:54 pm

Don't think cam sensor controls injector pulse at startup.

Ordered a new PCM. Hope I can program it with the dhp. Anyone have experience swapping pcm's? Assuming car won't run until I change the VIN etc.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:28 pm

New PCM came in today. Plugged it in and the car started! Just need to flash the time and VIN.
Anyone still have some .Bin files for a 96 sitting around? All the links in the old threads are broken :/

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:23 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:
New PCM came in today. Plugged it in and the car started! Just need to flash the time and VIN.
Anyone still have some .Bin files for a 96 sitting around? All the links in the old threads are broken :/

Any idea why the old PCM failed? Do you have the old crank sensor (I'm thinking if it shorted or some such it took the PCM?)

If the old PCM simply internally failed (a solder joint opened or some such), do you think that's something to watch out for as our cars remain in service?
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:45 am

No idea why the 22yr old PCM failed other than maybe age. Im a little nervous that i now have a durocrap CKP sensor installed now, prob going to order a delco to have at home just in case this fails 6mo from now.
The sensor i pulled off the car looked exactly the same as the durolast part. No delco or other marking anywhere on it, so maybe the grand prix i got the motor out of had the sensor replaced at some point too?

I have a buddy who is really good with circuit repair and builds (EE masters) and we pulled the PCM apart to try and look for a failure or see if one of the quad modules went bad, but there were no signs of failure.

Best guess is something in the logic went corrupt and the PCM stopped telling the injectors to fire. Not sure how the drivers work but if its anything like a SSD there is only so much it can take before it goes bad. And at 90mph/ 6k rpm i would imagine there is a lot of pulse width demand on that driver.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:09 am

Wonder if the injectors went static and the pcm didnt know what to do and gave up giveup

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:17 am

So i was reflashing the new pcm and something went wrong with the DHP and now its bricked with error 167 and i cant read or do anything with the brand new pcm that worked 2 days ago frown
Not the DHP cable bc it reads and writes to old pcm just fine.
Something errored when trying to change the vin number of all things and now it cant read block A0 on the pcm. FML

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:40 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:
So i was reflashing the new pcm and something went wrong with the DHP and now its bricked with error 167 and i cant read or do anything with the brand new pcm that worked 2 days ago frown
Not the DHP cable bc it reads and writes to old pcm just fine.
Something errored when trying to change the vin number of all things and now it cant read block A0 on the pcm. FML

sorry about that

quickest thing I can think of is to get a PCM from an eBay recycler, they will put your VIN in for you, does not take long to ship.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:25 pm

Morad had one for a great price. Hope rockauto takes back the $200 reman unit even though it is open box electronics.
Fingers crossed i am able to write the vin this time around.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:16 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
Morad had one for a great price. Hope rockauto takes back the $200 reman unit even though it is open box electronics.
Fingers crossed i am able to write the vin this time around.

that reminds me I need to call Morad for a drivers side window switch...
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:23 pm

New problem/same problem idk.
Got another PCM (96 park ave) and the car ran, PRND123 flashed and cel for maf, but it ran. Uploaded my old tune, from a harddrive, NOT read from bad PCM.
Back to square 1, car won't start. Reuploaded old Bonneville .Bin from 1st PCM and the car runs again.
Wtf is going on? Vats? Security light is not on.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:02 am

Anything I can check on the bcm?

Also the PRND321 lights are all on with the other tune and the temp sensor isnt working anymore.
What in the tune would cause this or is it just because its a .bin from a bonneville?

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:23 pm

Copied over all of my riv bin tables to the Bonneville bin and the car starts...On the original PCM too.
So PCM was never bad, and tune isn't bad. But the car won't start with a riv osid/settings in the pcm.
Ordering a bcm tomorrow. Not sure what else to try

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:48 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:
Copied over all of my riv bin tables to the Bonneville bin and the car starts...On the original PCM too.
So PCM was never bad, and tune isn't bad. But the car won't start with a riv osid/settings in the pcm.
Ordering a bcm tomorrow. Not sure what else to try

You're making progress... I would not sweat it, my car thinks it's a Bonneville too - last time I saw a Tech II attached to it I think it said it was a 2001 SSEi (with a Riviera VIN). Maybe a friendly dealer gearhead tech could shed some light on why. I only asked once at my friendly dealer because I saw the model designation flash when they connected a Tech II to it for diagnosis some years back; at that time service manager told me "oh it's right" and smiled so let's just say I took the hint and never asked again.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:04 pm

yea but im guessing the 01 bonnie .bin is setup the same (osid) as the 98 riv.
The 96 bonnie is not the same and the osid is not compatible with the 96 riv.
The car should not be running, but it does.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:35 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:
yea but im guessing the 01 bonnie .bin is setup the same (osid) as the 98 riv.
The 96 bonnie is not the same and the osid is not compatible with the 96 riv.
The car should not be running, but it does.

I don't know if the OSID is the same between the 01 Bonnie and the 98 Riv, although I would like to know. Actually, I'd also like to get a Tech II. At some point.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:08 am

albertj wrote:


Mr.Riviera wrote:
yea but im guessing the 01 bonnie .bin is setup the same (osid) as the 98 riv.
The 96 bonnie is not the same and the osid is not compatible with the 96 riv.
The car should not be running, but it does.



I don't know if the OSID is the same between the 01 Bonnie and the 98 Riv, although I would like to know.  Actually, I'd also like to get a Tech II. At some point.


Currently running super rich though even though i copied all the riv tables over. Getting 6-7mpg these past 2 days.
Ordered a junk yard BCM from morad. Hoping it works...

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:12 pm

Bcm didn't fix it.

Anyone know where the vats module is?

Going to try unplugging the battery and doing a key relearn with a different key(still for my car). And if that still doesn't fix it I guess I'm ordering part #3...$280vats module.
Still no security light except the initial 5 sec at key on.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. Not PCM.   Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:32 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
Bcm didn't fix it.

Anyone know where the vats module is?

Going to try unplugging the battery and doing a key relearn with a different key(still for my car). And if that still doesn't fix it I guess I'm ordering part #3...$280vats module.
Still no security light except the initial 5 sec at key on.

Last time I had a problem that looked like VATS it turned out to be the ignition switch itself.
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