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 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue

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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:37 pm

I may try to bypass the switch with the resistor in the wire.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:24 am

Trying this next.
Vats Fuel Enable Bypass:
http://passlockfixitcom.ipage.com/store/page54.html

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:32 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:
Trying this next.
Vats Fuel Enable Bypass:
http://passlockfixitcom.ipage.com/store/page54.html


If you do a search on this forum, there is info on how to do that bypass without a gizmo.

If it was me I'd just fix the switch and lock cylinder; over time the switch and cylinder will do other stupid stuff, like not turn to the ACC position, and you will end up replacing them anyway. In the roughly 300,000 miles I have driven my car I have replaced those rascals twice over.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:02 pm

I saw info on how to bypass the key resistor but not the fuel enable override.Below is a site for how to make one to make one. Just as soon buy for the time.

http://www.joestradingpost.com/vats/89_fuelenable.htm

Thanks for the replys and help thus far Albert!

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:47 pm

Not sure if the bypass kit I bought doesn't work or if it's not my no-start fix.
Installed and nada. Wrote the Bonneville .Bin back and car started but wouldn't stay running more than 3 seconds with the vats #55 fuel enable wire cut.


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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:59 am

I would expect the car to behave the same with the vats wire cut or connected on the bonny file. But it cuts fuel after 3 seconds like it is supposed to with no signal. So does that mean the vats is working correctly and my problem lies somewhere else? WTF else could it be?

Edit: bypass module tested and shows 50hz at 5vDC so works as it should.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:34 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:
I would expect the car to behave the same with the vats wire cut or connected on the bonny file. But it cuts fuel after 3 seconds like it is supposed to with no signal. So does that mean the vats is working correctly and my problem lies somewhere else? WTF else could it be?

Edit: bypass module tested and shows 50hz at 5vDC so works as it should.

Hint: Do you think this would happen if you had an issue in the ignition switch/ignition lock cylinder? Maybe there is a way to test them, IDK. I just replaced them based on a discussion with a GM tech: there are other lines of GM cars with the same ig switch/cylinder that had issues, I think it was the S-10 truck or some such.

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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:19 am

I can test the ICM switch for output of proper resistance with the key inserted. but have not done that yet. My understanding is that would cause a no crank situation or at minimum a security light if the vats detects incorrect resistance. I dont have either of those symptoms.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:18 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
I can test the ICM switch for output of proper resistance with the key inserted. but have not done that yet. My understanding is that would cause a no crank situation or at minimum a security light if the vats detects incorrect resistance. I dont have either of those symptoms.

I think you were onto something when you opined maybe it's not the VATS failing.

This is kind of an old-school problem - if the 'run' contacts in the ignition won't hold the relay closed then the car won't run. VATS or not.

If the electrical connection on the ignition cylinder goes bad (it's not the switch, rather the keyway, there is a little white wire on it) the VATS won't see the right resistance value.

What i found is for my pattern of car use and driving I get about 130-150K from an ignition switch and cylinder. My service records show I replaced them about 150-some-K, before, similar problem to yours. And again at 320-some K (couple months ago). Really, they just wear out and cause stupid problems that are tricky to diagnose in the context of OBDII and such, but kind of obvious with old-school problem finding and troubleshooting.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:05 pm

albertj wrote:

Mr.Riviera wrote:
I can test the ICM switch for output of proper resistance with the key inserted. but have not done that yet. My understanding is that would cause a no crank situation or at minimum a security light if the vats detects incorrect resistance. I dont have either of those symptoms.


I think you were onto something when you opined maybe it's not the VATS failing.

This is kind of an old-school problem - if the 'run' contacts in the ignition won't hold the relay closed then the car won't run.  VATS or not.

If the electrical connection on the ignition cylinder goes bad (it's not the switch, rather the keyway, there is a little white wire on it) the VATS won't see the right resistance value.  

What i found is for my pattern of car use and driving I get about 130-150K from an ignition switch and cylinder.  My service records show I replaced them about 150-some-K, before, similar problem to yours.  And again at 320-some K (couple months ago).  Really, they just wear out and cause stupid problems that are tricky to diagnose in the context of OBDII and such, but kind of obvious with old-school problem finding and troubleshooting.

So why does the car run with a different file loaded to the pcm? Been driving on a bonney tune the past 2 weeks but every time i upload the riv tune, it wont fire injectors.
I will pull the dash apart and see if there is an ICM wire i can test.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:20 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:

albertj wrote:


Mr.Riviera wrote:
I can test the ICM switch for output of proper resistance with the key inserted. but have not done that yet. My understanding is that would cause a no crank situation or at minimum a security light if the vats detects incorrect resistance. I dont have either of those symptoms.



I think you were onto something when you opined maybe it's not the VATS failing.

This is kind of an old-school problem - if the 'run' contacts in the ignition won't hold the relay closed then the car won't run.  VATS or not.

If the electrical connection on the ignition cylinder goes bad (it's not the switch, rather the keyway, there is a little white wire on it) the VATS won't see the right resistance value.  

What i found is for my pattern of car use and driving I get about 130-150K from an ignition switch and cylinder.  My service records show I replaced them about 150-some-K, before, similar problem to yours.  And again at 320-some K (couple months ago).  Really, they just wear out and cause stupid problems that are tricky to diagnose in the context of OBDII and such, but kind of obvious with old-school problem finding and troubleshooting.


So why does the car run with a different file loaded to the pcm? Been driving on a bonney tune the past 2 weeks but every time i upload the riv tune, it wont fire injectors.
I will pull the dash apart and see if there is an ICM wire i can test.

Without being there with a TechII and the manual, I don't have anything further. I do recall mentioning my car thinks it's a Bonneville, also. (no that's not in the manual!) only real difference I've noticed is the Personal Choice settings (like if the horn beeps or not when you lock the car) are a little different on it now. I just don't worry about it.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:05 pm

Thanks for the help! With mine the bonny file won't talk to the dash cluster so I have no cruise, tractions, temp gauge and the car acts strange under certain throttle positions and tries to stall. Almost like the bonny file and riv file are really close but the car hits a certain type and it wigs out and can't find the right table for timing/fuel at times.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:34 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
Thanks for the help! With mine the bonny file won't talk to the dash cluster so I have no cruise, tractions, temp gauge and the car acts strange under certain throttle positions and tries to stall. Almost like the bonny file and riv file are really close but the car hits a certain type and it wigs out and can't find the right table for timing/fuel at times.

The only other thing I can think of is the EEPROM in the PCM may have become physically damaged or corrupted. Can happen if you work on the car's electrical without disconnecting the battery. Rivs don't like that much. Here's more about EEPROM at this LINK. You can often get away with working on the car leaving the battery connected, BUT... sometimes they do weird stuff... . .

I would be looking for a physically damaged harness of wires to the PCM in an area of the harness where you could get a short to a sensor line without going thru a fuse. Cruise and traction issues, I am thinking something is amiss with the wheel sensors, or a throttle position sensor. Those flaky in conjunction with the temp gauge not working, I am thinking a short somewhere. Tedious, I know, I'm sorry but that's the direction I see things pointing so to speak.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:55 pm

Did some more digging today. Tested the key resistance and the resistance coming from the column with the key in and they match dead on. Reinstalled the vats fuel bypass with the bonny tune and the car starts fine. Flashed riv file and no start. Flashed bonny file and cut vats wire and car started and stalled, so looks like vats is not my issue.
Did a scan and saw a maf p0102 code and no reading from the maf. Uploaded riv file and same thing. Checked for V at the maf plug and saw 0.05v. disconnected the harness and checked the pink c1/c2/c4 wires coming out the firewall and they all have power (9-12v). Checked maf signal wire from maf plug to harness and maf to PCM and shows resistance with ohm meter. Same for ground and power to the harness. Idk what to check next but that voltage doesn't seem right. Not sure why it is dropping in power. Checked as much of the wire loom as I could and didn't see any breaks.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:32 am

We need to find you '90s GM gearhead in Florida.

I am still thinking EEPROM issue.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:28 am

albertj wrote:
We need to find you  '90s GM gearhead in Florida.

I am still thinking EEPROM issue.


I have a good buddy that works for Buick dealership (master tech) and he too is stumped. My last resort is to bring him the car and pay whatever ungodly amount they charge for diagnostic and fixing it.

So i have 2 PCM's, both the same part number, regardless of which one i plug up, if i load any riv OSID the car doesnt start, but if i load a bonneville or park ave tune (different, noncompatable OSIDs) the car will run. The EEPROM in the pcm is overwritten with each full write i do with the powertuner and i have written to the pcms both several times with the same results.

New issue that has surfaced today: IAC sometimes goes crazy and starts rising. Sitting in D, no throttle it will reach 1500rpm and 3k rpm in N. Can turn the car off and back on, and it will return to normal. Did i damage a wire messing with the MAF?
Should i just get a new wire harness? Or is there a relay controlling all of these sensors that is flaking out?
Again, thank you for the replys, seems you are the glue holding this forum together right now lol.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:08 pm

Did we check your battery?
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:35 pm

albertj wrote:
Did we check your battery?

For voltage? I have been driving the car for going on 3 weeks now like this. Plenty of power and i have been using a battery tender during tuning to prevent voltage drop mid tune. when testing yesterday i saw 12.5-12.8 on the terminals under the hood.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:28 pm

Hope that isn't running voltage.

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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:56 pm

No. That is key on voltage.

Driving home the IAC was wacked out. Turned car off and wouldn't restart for 3-4min. Just cranked.
Unplugged the IAC and idle returned to normal.

So driving with no maf and no iac

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:57 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
No. That is key on voltage.


As long as it is around 14.5 volts while the engine is running.

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Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:52 pm

I admit that I am perplexed by your car's issues and although I am out of ideas I am sticking with this thing until we figure it out. We've ruled out everything I can think of except to monotonically reverse the mods and start over, BUT the Riv maps won't run.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:09 pm

Stock riv file won't run. And the car ran perfect up to this point. Wasn't like I recently changed anything.

I am thinking shorted wire in the harness. Working on pulling it apart now.

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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:58 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:
Stock riv file won't run. And the car ran perfect up to this point. Wasn't like I recently changed anything.

I am thinking shorted wire in the harness. Working on pulling it apart now.


Did you consider just using a meter to find shorts/opens in the harness?  need details? (multimeter).

I am wondering if it's simply that your specific data files (bin, xdf, etc.) for the Riv got corrupted somehow. If that might be the case, perhaps one of the other list members could allow you a copy of the stock Riv tune?
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PostSubject: Re: 96 riv no start, injectors not pulsing. fixed w/wire harness +new issue   Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:55 pm

I've been trying to track down the short with a multimeter. Replaced the maf hot line (pink 439) from the maf plug to the harness. Still low v at sensor with harness plugged in. Harness unplugged shows continuity and 9v at the same pin. Car running the fuse shows same .01 v as the sensor. Fuse internally had melted and refused(no pun intended).
Looks like I'm onto something just need to find the draw/short.

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1996 with 244k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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