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 Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound

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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:14 pm

Hey guys! Yes I'm still around and more importantly, my 95 is still getting whipped around all over the place on a daily basis. wink

However! I just developed this godawful noise somewhere in the belt drive and am having a hell of a time chasing it down, even with a stethoscope!

Worth noting is that every, EVERY, pump and pulley on here has been replaced somewhere within the last 30k miles or so. Even my harmonic balancer... Which almost sounds like where this noise is coming from...  confused

It gets audibly louder from beneath the engine than above and does NOT disappear with increased rpm.

Side note, I just lost nearly the entire overflows worth of coolant suddenly this last week. (not on the ground nor in the oil so I'm a bit confused...but relieved)
It nearly makes me suspect the water pump...

Any thoughts? Inklings? Ideas??

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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:40 am

You sure the accessory belt is routed correctly? I think I see an empty idler pulley.

Other than that, I'd consider running the car for a few seconds (30 seconds) with each belt removed - One on, one off, both off - to isolate the clack to one or another belt train (if it is a belt and not a coincidence). I'd also check plastic pullies for cracking (very very rare) and pulley bearings for any binding/grinding. Do not mistake a sleeved bearing (which does not spin free even when new) with a binding problem. If in doubt, replace, they are not that much $, however be sure not to buy crap pullies. If one fails the flailing belt will tear up your hood liner and the hood liners are unobtainium.

Let us know what you find.
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:26 pm

What brand balancer did you get? If its anything other than an AcDelco id seriously look it over for cracks. Had an autozone one break at the metal hub 6mo after installing it. Thread is in here somewhere of my woes.

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1996 with 254k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs. -RIP
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:32 pm

I listened again. That does sound like the 'marbles in a can' of a water pump going bad. Still, slip the belts off and turn the pullies first. If it's the WP you'll know when you turn that pulley.
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sat May 05, 2018 10:44 am

***UPDATE***
So, this sound has persisted and even become more consistent. Still, it sounds loudest at the lower end of the belt drive But it seems to be affected by the cars angle as on some slopes when parked it is less severe. I'm beginning to suspect there is something loose in my timing cover?
Like, maybe the damper or tensioner chunked off a little piece that is sitting at the bottom and periodically getting picked up and tossed about? Is this feasible??
I've replaced literally every pulley and pump on the belt drive (including harmonic balancer) to no avail. I'm about a thousand dollars from giving up. Love this car but need it to run without worry right now. Honestly, the engine still runs smooth and there's no noticeable loss of power or rough idle. It just is a very obvious "something bad is about to happen" kind of noise.
pale
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Lmck3
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Mon May 07, 2018 9:14 pm

you wrote:
I'm beginning to suspect there is something loose in my timing cover?
Like, maybe the damper or tensioner chunked off a little piece that is sitting at the bottom and periodically getting picked up and tossed about? Is this feasible??
...................

answer:
the bottom of the timing cover is open to the oil pan.
the chain tensioner might be able to lose some slippery face material,
but Mr. Gravity would move that to the bottom of the oil pan.
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Mon May 07, 2018 11:15 pm

Erg! That does make good sense... Dang... I'm left pretty much lost as to what it could be?? Inconsistent, metallic sounding, but not in the belt drive? The sound is from the lower left (standing in front of the car)
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Tue May 08, 2018 10:46 am

I guess I just feel like if it were internal it wouldn't be inconsistent. Like it would have a definite pattern that was directly linked to engine speed as well.
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Tue May 08, 2018 11:57 am

My A/C compressor clutch makes some noise occasionally when I have the Climate Control off. It will disappear when the clutch is engaged.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Tue May 08, 2018 6:19 pm

My a/c compressor is about two years old but only ran cold for about a week as it had a leak in the line that I never fixed so it's just been spinning without engagement pretty much this whole time. I wonder...
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Tue May 08, 2018 6:59 pm

Try recharging it enough until the compressor clutch will engage and see if the noise changes.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Wed May 09, 2018 7:40 am

Great advise, my ac compressor on my old ford (93 Tempo..lol, daily driver) makes the same noise. Goes away with the air on.
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Wed May 09, 2018 10:09 am

the cheapo recharge unit I bought on the way home from work last night didn't do anything to charge my system and the clutch never engaged so I'm going to try again with another "more expensive" one today just to see if it makes a difference.

It's worth noting that over the months, that noise in the video is definitely more pronounced now than it was then...
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Wed May 09, 2018 2:59 pm

No change
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sat May 19, 2018 6:18 am

Found about an 1/8" of play on the main drive pulley today... I don't know why I've overlooked this... I guess because I just had to have the harmonic balancer replaced a few years back after it "grenaded"

Thing is...my very first repair to this car I had done as a young an inexperienced new owner was to have the crank position sensor replaced after my car died going down the freeway and threw that code. So the shop I had do the work had to remove the balancer to replace said sensor. Right? a few years on, same shop replaced that balancer. Later on a few years, same shop again, overlooks this part when trying to find the clickity clack sound... Or maybe they turned their eyes from it?? I don't know... Just irritated.

Why would my car be eating up harmonic balancers??
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sat May 19, 2018 4:36 pm

Where is the play? Are you saying the 2 halves of your balancers keep separating? Or does the crank shaft move that much?

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sat May 19, 2018 7:31 pm

Yes, the two halves keep separating... I wonder if there is a linked cause?
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sat May 19, 2018 8:21 pm

Never heard of that happening repeatedly. Only to an old balancer.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sat May 19, 2018 9:09 pm

llamalor2112 wrote:
Found about an 1/8" of play on the main drive pulley today...


Why would my car be eating up harmonic balancers??

Because if the install is ham-handed the rubber in the balancer is compromised.
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sun May 20, 2018 12:33 am

That's what I'm now guessing, because I know it was an oem part I had put in but I'm only now guessing that the shop I had put it in didn't do the best job of it.... And I'm beginning to think that's why that same shop "couldn't help me" find the source of the sound. quiet
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sun May 20, 2018 6:18 pm

Unless they beat it on, I can't imagine how installing it with the right tool would produce those results. If you can't find a decent mechanic, then rent the tool and do it yourself.

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98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Sun May 20, 2018 9:41 pm

LARRY70GS wrote:
Unless they beat it on, I can't imagine how installing it with the right tool would produce those results.  If you can't find a decent mechanic, then rent the tool and do it yourself.




They probably did not beat it on --  but sometimes a shop will try using the universal tool for removing/installing balancers and it does not really fit the Riv, you have to substitute the bolts to do it right.  Also the manual IIRC mentions a procedure for removing it without a puller, which I think is BS... There is a thread on this site about that, and it lists the bolts to substitute. See it here:

http://rivperformance.editboard.com/t1535-write-up-removing-the-crank-pulley-harmonic-balancer.

You *can* get the balancer on/off with the universal puller but when you do it without the correct bolts you tend to (not always) tear the rubber.  My balancer's only ever been pulled  by me or my local GM dealer.  That balancer has been in service life of the car (344+ K miles, I put on lots of miles;  I don't baby the car and I don't thrash it either).

It is not particularly difficult but it IS *specific*.  Take a moment - see the link.  The thing is, as Derek pointed out some years ago, the harmonic balancer uses a rubber insulator between the piece which bolts to the crank, and the outer pulley. The insulator helps absorb crankshaft vibrations. Unfortunately it can dry out over time; when that happens it tears and then you have a lot of rattling.   As it gets worse, it starts clanging and throwing belts and stuff.  You want to replace it while it is only rattling, not waiting for the clanging of the "whatsamatta chorus."  When you replace it, DO NOT cheap out, and if your engine is supercharged be sure to get the right one, the SC and non-SC balancers look similar and the Delco part numbers are *close* (I think the SC ones are 88960264, 88960259, 12563268, 24501752, 24504739, 24507560; Dorman 594-122; non-SC 12563267, it has different belt tracks). Of the ones on the RockAuto site for the '98 Riv, I would probably buy the Dayco.

Albertj
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Mon May 21, 2018 12:02 am

How does that translate with regards to "first or second design"? On rock auto it only lists a small few for the 95, atp(first and second design) pioneer first and second design) , and one dayco (first design only)

If I can figure out first VS second design, that'll save me the expense of them popping off the current one to check the number before ordering a new one.
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Mon May 21, 2018 12:30 am

llamalor2112 wrote:
How does that translate with regards to "first or second design"? On rock auto it only lists a small few for the 95, atp(first and second design) pioneer first and second design) , and one dayco (first design only)

If I can figure out first VS second design, that'll save me the expense of them popping off the current one to check the number before ordering a new one.

Hmmm... I did not look at the 95, and don't own one - let's ask Abaddon, he has access to the GM info.

Abaddon?
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llamalor2112
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PostSubject: Re: Clickity Clack... Help diagnose this sound   Mon May 21, 2018 11:28 am

I actually used to work for a dealership here in Washington and called my parts guy. He said that the only way to tell the design difference is by pulling the balancer and checking for a date code. They will however get me a discontinued oem part at cost+10 which is nice.
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