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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:42 am

twin-charging is interesting. It's already hard to tune a turbo setup, which is why so many of them don't stick around. Turbos have great potential but many of the 3800 turbo kits I've seen installed did not have the rest of the support in place (big tranny upgrades and lots of tuning). Twin-charging just adds to the complexity, so again, be ready to break transmissions and tune a LOT.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:22 am

I've seen some mods that can be considered overkill, but I believe twin charging is a very legitimate thing to do. The benefits are totally real and measurable, not just theoretical. There's nothing "show-off" about doing this, as proven by some of the fastest 3800 cars. But even for daily driving it makes sense. There are production engines (VW) that currently use the idea - it can even be made fuel efficient. It's complex, but for good reason. In many ways it makes more sense than just running a turbo alone, imo.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:05 am

turtleman wrote:
Jack the R wrote:
turtleman wrote:
Theres a few people with setups like that. In fact zzperforamance sells kits for the explicit purpose of twin charging - running the blower with a turbo

Where?

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=411&catid=109
Take a look at the first drop-down option "Model"
There's a little info down at the FAQ on the twin charge option but it's pretty vague


Siiiiiiiiiick . . .

This doesn't use headers, and it takes a cheaper intercooler?

It's still super expensive, but that helps a lot.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:46 am

And another big advantage to twin charging is you can use a pretty large, single turbo, because you don't have to deal with turbo lag. The blower provides instant boost while your giant turbo is spooling up, then hold on... It's pretty awesome in concept.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
T Riley
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:16 pm

AA wrote:
And another big advantage to twin charging is you can use a pretty large, single turbo, because you don't have to deal with turbo lag. The blower provides instant boost while your giant turbo is spooling up, then hold on... It's pretty awesome in concept.

I totally agree with this! I have always wanted to turbo the riv! I have thought about demoding and doing so someday.. Maybe once i get another car.. I think i will take off my Gen V though.. And just run a mid size turbo.. 62 or a 67 idk
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:19 pm

turtleman wrote:

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=411&catid=109
Take a look at the first drop-down option "Model"
There's a little info down at the FAQ on the twin charge option but it's pretty vague
After looking at this set-up. I think i would want them to install and tune it.
Sure would be nice when I get another DD.
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T Riley
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:21 pm

Rickw wrote:
turtleman wrote:

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=411&catid=109
Take a look at the first drop-down option "Model"
There's a little info down at the FAQ on the twin charge option but it's pretty vague
After looking at this set-up. I think i would want them to install and tune it.
Sure would be nice when I get another DD.

ZZP charges sooo much to install and tune though! Maybe they would give you a discount for having a riviera and than they could add to the page that it also fits Riviera's! Are you really planning on Turbo someday?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:26 pm

Fat chance... they'd probably charge you MORE, or not even do it at all. INTENSE wouldn't touch my car for header install, so had to do it myself!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:27 pm

If and when, it would definitely be Twin Charging it. More practical for the street. Not straight Turbo, I want both S/C and turbo.
I could put all the pieces on but if those guys have the experience with set-up and tuning the monster it would be worth bringing to them, instead of making costly mistakes.
Drive out there and fly home and wait.
Also need to consider the Transmission Upgrade.
So it would be an investment in a toy at that point.
Like I said, after I buy another DD.
Waiting for the convertible Camaro.!!!!!!
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T Riley
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:30 pm

Rickw wrote:
If and when, it would definitely be Twin Charging it. More practical for the street. Not straight Turbo, I want both S/C and turbo.
I could put all the pieces on but if those guys have the experience with set-up and tuning the monster it would be worth bringing to them, instead of making costly mistakes.
Drive out there and fly home and wait.
Also need to consider the Transmission Upgrade.
So it would be an investment in a toy at that point.
Like I said, after I buy another DD.
Waiting for the convertible Camaro.!!!!!!

hmm convertible camaro.. its it going to be a hardtop conv?
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:31 pm

Not that i know of. Ragtop is in the works from what I've read.
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T Riley
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:32 pm

Rickw wrote:
Not that i know of. Ragtop is in the works from what I've read.
pimp Will it be an SS I hope?
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:33 pm

AA wrote:
Fat chance... they'd probably charge you MORE, or not even do it at all. INTENSE wouldn't touch my car for header install, so had to do it myself!
Why wouldn't Intense install headers in a Riv.
No more difficult than the stuff they normally work on.???
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:34 pm

98riviera98 wrote:
Rickw wrote:
Not that i know of. Ragtop is in the works from what I've read.
pimp Will it be an SS I hope?
I would imagine!!!
I watched an interview I while back with one of the heads of GM and he mentioned that when the SS Convertible comes out he will have one in his garage.
He seemed like a real Car Guy!!!
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:43 pm

Quote :
Why wouldn't Intense install headers in a Riv.
No more difficult than the stuff they normally work on.???
Back then, INTENSE didn't actually have an in-house welder, believe it or not. They also had never put headers on a Riv, and didn't know how they would fit. I think if I had prodded them, maybe, but I could tell they weren't thrilled about doing it.

Quote :
So it would be an investment in a toy at that point.
Like I said, after I buy another DD.
But... it would be one of the meanest, most impressive and unique street driven Rivs on the planet, and it would be SO much fun to drive. There's not a better way to make 500+ WHP with our engines, imo. You pay a lot for it, though.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:46 pm

Yeh, But the Riv is clean and doesn't owe me a dime.
It would be worth throwing the money at it and keeping it as a mean toy, the only other thing I could think of would be a 70's muscle car.
But at the prices they are going for the Riviera would be nice too.
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:06 pm

You can get your money out of the muscle car again if you choose wisely. Once you put it into the Riv, it's gone forever.
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ibmoses
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:26 pm

I used to have a 87GN that was very wicked, I cant imagine needing any more power than it had on the street and that was before alcohol injection. With the advances in technology there is no telling what kind of power you could squeeze out of a Turbo V6 Buick. 3gears
I got the specs on it somewhere, it was a old school build. I think the Turbo was a TE60-1 and it had a stock location oversized intercooler, O ringed heads, studs, 16" GTA wheels....what a hoot to drive. You could sour down on that sucker at 30mph and it would sling your ass out from under the steering wheel if you were not hanging on tight.
Bert tavis
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:02 am

Last I heard Turbo GN owners were getting 1400 hp.
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SCbuick010
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PostSubject: need help with potenial build   Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:19 am

Okay here soon i would like to start a turbo project. I will be starting with a L67, but i dont want to block off the M90. Instead I would like to run a 3800 f-body UIM/LIM ( http://zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=1121&catid=163 ). Will they bolt right up? and can you port them like you can with our L67 LIM? I dont want to block off the m90 and i dont want to run a plastic UIM. I know the turbo set up will be on the passenger side, but my dad is making my turbo setup for free anyway so i will be able to make up whatever i want.
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:10 am

You are mistaken. The turbo will not be on the passenger side. The turbo will be on the driver side where the crossover pipe is. That intake is for Camaro's and Firebird's, where a turbo setup can be made to fit on the passenger side. The Riv and GP are not set up to have a turbo on the passenger side, as our drive belts are over there. It's not a smart idea to even try it, which is why ZZP or Intense don't sell a turbo setup on that side with that manifold. I suppose it's possible, but you'd be wasting your time and money.
http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=411&catid=109

You need to read about the turbo setup for GP's before you do anything. You don't have to block off the M90. You can twin charge it, using the S/C and a turbo. You'll be spending more money than you need to by changing UIM's, or, in this case, the S/C. By using the proper size S/C pulley, and buying a modified Bypass Solenoid, you can keep the S/C.

2. What is the twin charged configuration?

This setup is made for running the blower and the turbo. It uses a different style of exhaust housing on the turbo and works with supercharged or symetrical cams. It requires an intercooler below the supercharger. This setup is recommended for running anything larger than a 67mm turbo. It works well with lower stall converters and can spool up to a 80mm turbo. We ran this setup on our 9 sec street grand prix. It comes with electronics to open the supercharger bypass when the turbo spools.
One of the benefits of this setup is that it allows people with highly modified M90 configurations an easy, affordable upgrade path. By selling your airbox, headers, and 42# injectors, you can make back some of the cost. Additionally, cars running a intercooler can keep most of the existing setup. The twin charged kit works well with supercharged cam profiles. A twin charged setup, given similar mods will always outperform a turbo only solution.


If your father has the skills to build this.....

# Precision Turbo T61 turbo
# TiAL 38mm wastegate kit
# TIG welded 304 stainless steel crossover
# TIG welded 304 stainless steel 2.5" downpipe
# Powder coated intake pipes
# Oil feed and return system
# High temp silicone connectors
# K&N air filter
# Custom PCM programming for your modifications
# Crankcase breather
# Autolite 103 plugs gapped for your setup
# All required hoses and gaskets
# All installations accessories
# LT1 MAF with wire adapter (04+ GP only)
# Coupler and T bolt clamps for MAF (04+ GP only)
# Modified charge tube (04+ GP only)
# Vacuum hose adapter (04+ GP only)
# Fuel rail spacers (04+ GP only)
# Fully detailed instructions

.....then props to him. Your better off buying the kit.
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SCbuick010
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:02 pm

building that wouldnt be a problem. you just get all the necessary parts, and my dad does the rest. i dont really feel like paying $4000 or whatever, and not utilize my dads skills
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SCbuick010
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:05 pm

and i have been doing a lot of research on turbo L67's, ideally I would like to get some Holden intake manifolds and throttle body, but shipping would be insane.
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:11 pm

SCbuick010 wrote:
and i have been doing a lot of research on turbo L67's, ideally I would like to get some Holden intake manifolds and throttle body, but shipping would be insane.

There is no price limit to go fast twisted
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SCbuick010
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PostSubject: Re: Twin Charging   Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:28 pm

there is when your 19 and you have to work 2 jobs while being a full time student to fund your build lol
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