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 FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads

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AA
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Mon May 27, 2013 7:34 pm

I haven't used the EBCs you linked to, but I did use a set of their 3GD Sport Rotors. Unfortunately they warped from abuse. For a long while they were fine, though. EBC is a trusted brand, and I think well of their products in general. I think Mr.Riviera tried the rotors you are looking at.

I havn't used RedStuff pads, but I think it's safe to assume they are similar the Hawk HPS - best performance for low dust and noise. If you are just driving the car to work and some on the weekends, this will be a nice upgrade.

Yellowstuff would be like Hawk's HP+, borderline track performance but with some dusting. Because our cars are heavy, this is necessary if you like to do long hard stops from freeway speeds. For example, if you want to try following that black Audi S6 that's doing 80 MPH from Columbus to Cleveland, you'd better be able to stop when he stops, more than a couple times if needed. Still Yellow has limits because of our weight.

Bluestuff is the next level. You can do anything with this car on the street and know it will stop every time. Even for light track activity, these pads are pretty robust. And they really don't dust that badly, and are very quiet. I once moved up to a high friction Hawk track pad, then went back the EBC Bluestuff. They're that good if you crave that kind of deceleration power. If you ever want to know what race-level braking feels like in a Riviera, this is pretty close.

EBC makes an OrangeStuff compound, but it is for the track only. Do not recommend for daily driving.


_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Mon May 27, 2013 8:25 pm

I went with the HPS pads and EBC rotors that I linked to above. FYI, Amazon has 10% off EBC items right now.

_________________
1998 Supercharged Riviera - Custom CAI, Alpine spx-13ref, Infinity 6x9's, Alpine 4 Channel Amp, Kicker KX3, Silverstars, STB, Hawk Brake Pads, Monroe Air Shocks, KYB GR2


Last edited by 98riv on Mon May 27, 2013 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Mon May 27, 2013 8:25 pm

Josh and I both installed powerstop cross drilled and slotted rotors and pads. I think we can both say it was a good bang for the buck.

I have no reference to compare them too, but I like them!
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Mon May 27, 2013 9:34 pm

yep i love how fast i stop now def improvement. next project is new calipers all way around and new brakelines too! just because my abs and trac lights on so im replacin everything slowly but surely
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:37 pm

Just installed my 3rd (i think im on the 3rd) set of front EBC Blue Stuff NDX pads.
I had the HP+ up front for a little bit. LOVED the way they had cold bite, but couldnt stand the noise mad . and the looks i got rolling around parking lots sounding like a 1974 rusted station waggon coming to a stop.
Nice to have the quiet EBC's back now.

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:41 pm

Agreed. With bluestuff, EBC accidentally created the best performance street pad for modified Rivieras.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:43 pm

Walked out to take a look at my rear rotors because i was getting a low hum noise from the rear when they got hot coming to a stop.
I have had Hawk HP+ and EBC USR rotors back there for just over 2,000 miles.

The slotted line is already GONE. WTF shout. They are not dragging, i havent been beating on them that hard, and yes the pads and rotors were brand new from the mfg. Granted the slots were pretty shallow new because there isnt much material back there anyways, but still!



At $102 a pair i had hoped they would last more than a month.
Never again. In fact i dont think im going with EBC rotors again. The front set had shallow slots and didnt last nearly as long as my powerslots did.
Back to solid rears i guess.

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1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:00 pm

HP+ are abrasive pads, but should have lasted more than 2k miles on the rear. I usually would see the slots disappearing after 20-30k miles on the front. Last pair of rear slotted discs from Brake Performance have 21k miles on them and still have prominent slots. HP+ were on them 80% of that time. I expect to get 40-50k miles from this pair.

On the plus side, at least the fading slots gave fair warning of the problem. I'm curious to see what the other side of the disc looks like, and the other side of the car.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:12 pm

Im going to try and find the time to pull them off tomorrow to look at everything. That pic is of the passenger side. Driver side is just as thin on the outside.

Wish i had a caliper to measure them new vs now to see just how much they have worn.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:09 pm

The outer edge (where the pad doesn't wear) still has slots at full depth. You can measure across the rotor at the max and min thickness areas to calculate the wear. The slots are usually .060-.080" deep per side, so that's quite a bit of wear.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:37 pm

I've been running those cheap eBay drilled and slotted ones for a couple thousand miles now. No issues and they stop well enough.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:06 pm

Thanks, Matt. I'm guessing you're using a less aggressive pad. Mr.Riviera's pads are a metallic formula that bites the rotors hard. If you switch to pads like his, your Riv will stop quicker with less pedal effort, and your rotors will show a lot more wear in short time. But 2k miles is some very fast wear - somethin's up!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:09 pm

Psh. I don't need to stop. That's what trees are for.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:29 pm

AA wrote:
HP+ are abrasive pads, but should have lasted more than 2k miles on the rear. I usually would see the slots disappearing after 20-30k miles on the front. Last pair of rear slotted discs from Brake Performance have 21k miles on them and still have prominent slots. HP+ were on them 80% of that time. I expect to get 40-50k miles from this pair.

On the plus side, at least the fading slots gave fair warning of the problem. I'm curious to see what the other side of the disc looks like, and the other side of the car.


Sounds like you have had a good experience with the Brake Performance rotors?

Curious, were they any lighter than the OEM rotors? I read a thread on a BMW forum where the Brake Performance rotors were quite a bit lighter.

Also, why did you go with the slotted only rotors versus their cross drilled/slotted or dimpled/slotted rotors?

Their prices and warrantee are very attractive.

Al


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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:18 am

ive got the powerstop drilled and slotted rotors front and back and power stop pads all off ebay in one nice $160 package. ive already put 5000 miles on with no probs
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:11 am

Quote :
Sounds like you have had a good experience with the Brake Performance rotors?

Curious, were they any lighter than the OEM rotors? I read a thread on a BMW forum where the Brake Performance rotors were quite a bit lighter.

Also, why did you go with the slotted only rotors versus their cross drilled/slotted or dimpled/slotted rotors?

Their prices and warrantee are very attractive.
I've had no problems with the Brake Performance rotors, and so far the new Brembos are also very good. For the price, I'd recommend Brake Performance to any Riv owner, because they offer the features of more expensive brands, a solid warranty against cracking, and the anti-rust coatings they use are excellent. I've used multiple sets and have never been able to crack or warp them, even with heavy track use.

Having said that, I have seen some wear (similar to Mr.Riviera) occurring with Brake Performance rotors when using very abrasive pad compounds - it's normal for daily street driving. Having not tested every rotor out there, I don't know if all iron discs wear about the same, or if the more expensive ones hold up better. I once warped a set of EBC running Hawk HP-S pads, for what it's worth. This is why I'm trying the Brembos, to see how well they hold up.

For sure, Brake Performance (or any aftermarket) rotors are lighter than OEM if you're comparing slotted or drilled versions to plain, because machining removes material. Comparing plain vs. plain, I'd guess the weight difference is minimal. Some variance would be from the iron composition being different - doubt it accounts for much. On the subject of weight, I prefer a heavier rotor to a lighter one for the thermal advantage. More mass can absorb a bit more heat before reaching limits. I've noticed old worn down rotors tend to get hotter more quickly with less braking effort, because the discs lose their mass as they wear over time.

I've tried the following rotor types on my Riviera: plain, slotted, drilled, slotted & drilled, and slotted & dimpled. They all have their advantages. I prefer plain or slotted because drilled aren't necessary and combination patterns (drilled/slotted, etc) are just silly, imo.

Plain: the humble choice. Let's face it, most of the decorative rotor designs are for looks as far as the consumer is concerned. For those of us who don't want to show off, plain are the way to go. They will stop the car just as fast as the fancier rotors, and the extra mass helps with heat. For all-out performance in the short term, plain are my favorite. Our Integra Lemons racer uses plain EBC rotors at all wheels.

Drilled: once upon a time brake pads out-gassed when they got hot. This gas supposedly could build up between the pad and rotor surfaces inducing fade. Drilling rotors addressed this problem, as well as evacuating water in cold operation. But pads improved with time, and it was found that drilling weakens discs, causing potential for cracks. Race teams and track enthusiasts rarely use them anymore. For production cars, even fast ones, drilled rotors look cool and will hold up to serious braking for most drivers. For a long hard stop once in a while, they're fine. But for track use, where you'll be braking hard every few seconds for hours at a time, drilled are too much risk, so get replace with plain or slotted.

Slotted: these function the same as drilled without weakening the disk as much. Slots also keep the pads cleaner and prevent formation of grooves in the disc. Look at high performance track cars and you'll see a lot of slotted-only discs in use. For my Riv I use slotted for another reason: they serve as a gauge to monitor disc wear when using pads with lots of bite. When slots are gone, it's time to replace. Pads wear a little faster with slotted rotors, but usually the better pads are more durable, so it cancels out.

Dimpled: sort of gimmicky. They appear to be drilled from a distance, but not as functional. Some dimpled rotors make a "z-i-i-i-i-n-n-g" sound during hard deceleration, which is kinda fun.

Combos of drilled, slotted, and dimpled are mainly for show, and the more you see different mixtures being applied, the more obvious it seems there is really nothing to be gained here. The common thought is having both drilled & slotted would give the advantages of both, but when I go into paddocks with Indy, LMP, GT and touring race cars, I see lots of slotted-only and plain rotors being used. No drilled. I also don't see any drilled/slotted or slotted/dimpled combos. Even exotics like Porsche, Ferrari, and Lambo stick with simple drilled or slotted patterns rather than resorting to the look of silly combo patterns, which implies "cheap aftermarket" to serious car nuts.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:59 am

Aaron,
Here are the passenger side pads.


There doesnt seem to be any taper, unusual wear, or even an abnormal amount of wear on them.
The inside of that rotor is the same as the outside and the caliper moves freely with plenty of grease on the slider.


Driver side shows slightly less wear on the rotor. Most of the slots are visible, but barely feelable.

Think i will keep these rotors on there a while longer until i start getting vibration. Maybe EBC didnt cut the groves deep enough? There is only a construction paper thin (or thick) difference between the wear area and inside hat.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:43 pm

Either that or somehow you got a different compound than advertized. I was thinking that when you mentioned the dusting.

Or maybe the iron used for EBC rotors is just easier to wear down?

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:34 pm

I think i have determined the caked on brake dust was actually the black oxide paint that the rotor initially came with. I had to use steel wool, acid, and clay bar to get the stuff off the wheel. I cleaned the driver wheel a few weeks ago and it has stayed considerably cleaner than the passenger one with the gunk still caked in it.
I should have taken a picture of it. nasty stuff to get off. and it was only on one edge of the spoke and bowl. Like i took a can of spray paint while the wheel was spinning one direction.

Maybe i overheated them on the break in and that stuff melted off and stuck to the hot rim.

Either way im not going with those rear rotors anymore, i personally feel like the metallurgy of the EBC's is softer than other brands. Makes for a clean surface and smooth stop, but at what cost?

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:44 pm

Yeah, I had that coating on a set of EBC front rotors. I drove them cold for a few miles until the disc ring surfaces were shiny, then bedded them in. I think Brembo warns against this in their installation instructions.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:54 pm

To give an update:
My rear rotors and pads on the passenger side are about gone. I pulled them this weekend to take a look and they are wearing very even. I was expecting some weird wear pattern or some kind of indication, but no. Pads are both the same thickness, flat, level and the rotor has worn the same both sides.
Only indication i get that something isnt right is the fast wear and a low hum noise during braking (most of the time). Hot or cold it makes the noise.
I should have swapped the pads to the other side to see if the noise moved but i didnt.
Driver side has worn past the slots but not at the same rate as the passenger side.

Im at a loss. im just going to use these up and order some ebc yellows next time with solid rotors.

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1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:11 pm

That's weird. I would send them back to Hawk with your experience and ask them to analyze the compound to be sure it's HP+. It's possible you got half a set of DTC compound or something else.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:27 pm

I contacted Hawk, we will see what they say. Id like to swap sides before sending them to them to rule out rotor noise or caliper problem.

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1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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Merit : 99

PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:35 am

Hawk called me and said they wouldnt expect much more than that kind of mileage out of the HP+ pad on the street.
As for the noise they didnt have much to say, maybe that pad hums instead of squeaks, idk.

He recommended HPS for the street use, even though ive tried them and wasnt happy with their decel characteristics or fade control. He was adamant that track pads were for track use only and wear, noise, dust etc was not cause for concern with them.

At least they were quick to contact me. Ill prob go with a different rear pad next time. Cant afford $200 pad/rotor combo every 6months.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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Mr.Riviera
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Name : Matthew
Age : 30
Location : Florida
Joined : 2007-01-17
Post Count : 4338
Merit : 99

PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads   Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:51 am

Getting these next for the rear:
EBC Yellow part# DP41621R

Should have decent stopping power, while not enough to lock up the rear tires under panic stops like the HP+ did.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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FAQ: Brake Rotors and Pads
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