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TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 03, 2009 12:26 am

FYI , if anyone is looking for a set of these , i have a friend with a spare set lying around , and he'd probably be willing to sell them.LMK

When complemented with a small subwoofer , they deliver excellent sound for the money IMO.
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Shintsu
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 03, 2009 12:31 am

If the price they have on there is for a pair that's pretty good, however knowing quality audio equipment if the price was per each speaker I wouldn't be surprised. I don't have the spare cash for both sets currently, but if I were going to buy one of the pairs and mate them with the stock head unit which ones should I get first?
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Shintsu
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 03, 2009 6:31 pm

I asked one of the sellers who was selling them for like $50 - it's a price for a pair. That is a good deal in that case. That still doesn't answer my question though - should I get the 5.25"s or the 6 x 9's first?
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TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 03, 2009 6:35 pm

I did the 6x9s first...Noticed more of a difference than with the 5.25s up front later. However i really think a sub brings these speakers to life , as they are lacking in low end bass , but have good highs and mids.
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 03, 2009 6:51 pm

I'd recommend the 6x9's first, they have enough bass to keep you going without a sub. If you move the fade more towards the back, you can utilize the 4 tweeters between the pair and get some crisp highs too!

Don't forget to get your harness! It makes it one of the easiest functional mods you'll ever do, more than worth the $10.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_12071014/Speaker-Harnesses.html?search=speaker+harness&tp=3097&tab=review
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Shintsu
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 03, 2009 7:33 pm

I'm weighing my options ATM, but thanks for the help guys. I'll go with the 6 x 9's first when/if I do buy them.
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 03, 2009 7:34 pm

Shintsu,
I'm very pleased with the sound from all 4 with no sub. Try it, you might like it. If you still want you can add a sub later...
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Shintsu
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 03, 2009 10:24 pm

deekster_caddy wrote:
Shintsu,
I'm very pleased with the sound from all 4 with no sub. Try it, you might like it. If you still want you can add a sub later...
Definitely, I've kind of given up on car subwoofers as somewhat childish and not that necessary. That doesn't mean I'll never get any or ask for advice about them but at present I think other things are better spent than those. I'm probably going to hold off on the car speakers until I finish my home audio setup in the other room (Have the speakers, need to pickup the receiver now).

I notice that the sound quality is acceptable in the car, I don't see where the comments of horrible sound come from. Sure there might be better sound aftermarket but this factory setup is good (Just ask my dad what he thinks about the sound "system" in his F150...lmao). Imaging the factory speakers won't do, but that would require quite a bit of isolation that any road noise would ruin. I imagine it would be decent though, probably not need a sub unless I want some really loud boom.
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TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 03, 2009 11:35 pm

Well , my sub doesn't have really loud boom , just solid bass response. It can get a bit boomy , but only when i want it to be. Bass is just as important as mids or highs in a setup IMO. No more important , but no less important. Some setups have decent bass without a sub , but these speakers are not great for that , which is fine for me , let my sub handle the bass and my speakers handle mids and highs.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 9:50 am

Quote :
Definitely, I've kind of given up on car subwoofers as somewhat childish and not that necessary.
When you have a sub set-up correctly in a car, there is no boom (unless the recording artist used an 808). What a sub does that smaller speakers can't - it adds transient response. Transients are present at live recordings, but they are not present in sound from a small radio or even medium sized speakers, and they are a big part of the realism you get when you are listening live. Transients are also lacking in some vented subwoofers, and this accounts for their reputation for sounding boomy, especially band-pass designs. Without a good sub to reproduce these transients, you won't get the impact of a hand slapping an accoustic guitar, the pluck of a big bass, or the impact of a snare drum. Sure, you can 'hear' the snare, but you can't accurately experience that quick, low-frequency pulse without a sub.

Reproducing modern hi-fi = Subwoofer necessary

Excluding subs because you're afraid of boom = Childish wink

Listening to a sub and hearing perfect sound quality = Priceless

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
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TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 12:22 pm

Well said AA.
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Shintsu
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 3:58 pm

...Wrong. I believe subs are childish because 98% of people putting car subwoofers in are doing it for what I was originally planning to do - boom so loud your car rattles and everyone can hear you. Although those people are so fucking stupid, they want it that loud for their own hearing - I don't, I like being able to hear things so I don't want to just blast my ear drums out. Since most people putting car subs in want nothing more than that, that's childish.

Don't tell me anything about subwoofers, I know. I have a damn subwoofer in my stereo system (An Energy 12"). For ACCURACY you should not need a subwoofer. Speakers should replicate all the necessary sounds and imaging you need. Truly, the need of a sub to compensate means your speakers aren't that good. I have one for games and movies - two things that particularly emphasis large amounts of bass. But for plain music listening, they should not be used. I'm a purist in that sense - no subs for music listening. Maybe in cars, never in home audio.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 4:12 pm

Just because 98% of people you know like to crank up their subs to unbalanced levels, that doesn't got a thing to do with me, and it isn't the fault of the product. It's a preference that's adjustable to suit each listener's taste. Those subs are loud because their owners set the gains that way. Good for them.

For ultimate accuracy, you DO need a subwoofer, otherwise...

How do you ACCURATELY reproduce the sound of a tuba?

a timpani drum?
a bowed bass?
a kick drum?
a pipe organ?
cannon fire?
thunder?

And how about the fundamentals of these sounds, which are 1/2 and 1/4 the frequency of the notes?

How? The answer is, you can't without a sub. The 16 Hz fundamental of the lowest pipe organ note on a set of 4" speakers? Not a chance. Yet this is music, and it's recordable. It's reproducible from an analog amplifier. Why shouldn't your speakers be able to reproduce this music?

Without a subwoofer, you aren't even close to getting a perfectly flat 20-20kHz response curve. You have use a sub, built-in or separate, to hear and feel these sounds. Otherwise, you need to be willing to settle for lower frequency response, lower quality, and more distortion. That's fine, but don't tell others they are childish for wanting to enjoy music at a higher level of output and accuracy. Just enjoy your own music at an inferior level and be happy about it.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 6:05 pm

BTW I agree with AA here - a Sub makes the sound much better. You can easily add a single 8" sub and add the sound that's missing from a 6x9 without 'booming' other people out. I think a sub is something for the listener to enjoy. I LOVE the sound when you add a sub. But I'm still happy with the sound I get from having been lazy and not adding a sub to my current system.
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Shintsu
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 7:39 pm

*BUZZZZZ* WRONG Again. Perhaps you are confusing the area which concerns what I'm discussing. I am making reference to home audio. I don't give a damn if cars need subwoofers or whatever (we already had the acoustics discussion about cars). A quality home audio setup does NOT need a subwoofer when listening to music. A quality floorstanding speaker will reproduce the low end and not need a subwoofer with it.

Take a look at this:
Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 Large_1

Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 Large_2

That is a Mission Pilastro speaker. Their king of the line, "Elite" speaker as they call it. I can say without having heard it with great certainty, that will not need a subwoofer. If your idea of a subwoofer in a speaker means something like an 8" or 10" driver in a speaker (in the case of the old 3-ways from the 70's) that is not a subwoofer. A subwoofer is a seperate piece that solely provides Low-mid to low frequency responses. Don't mistake this for you needing to spend $35k a pair like those Pilastros are, I just happened to type in Mission and looked up their nicest speakers. There are tons of speakers that don't need subwoofers like you think that cost $1000 and some even cheaper. Just look at Cerwin Vega - YUCK. Sound like hell and are inaccurate as shit but they are boomy and that's just the speakers with no sub. A sub with Cerwin Vegas would be overkill big time...

If you are trying to tell me in home audio regards that a subwoofer is necessary for accuracy, you are sadly mistaken. Again, car audio is a silly little joke to me. There would be some appreciable volume levels and a moderate increase in the accuracy of sound, but as I have said before there are a lot of factors that interrupt the imaging of speakers in a car that you can't get rid of. If you want to feel like you're live in concert listening to whoever or whatever you're listening to, you're not going to easily do it in a car. It's much easier in a home situation.

And it's funny, subwoofers are to some degree non-audible. The lowest levels are only able to be felt and seen through things moving. Just do a subwoofer test with the tones and you'll see how it stops where you can't hear it anymore but you feel it moving and see things moving.
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 8:23 pm

That tower has four 8" woofers and six passive radiators only playing 110hz and down. Are you not considering these subs just because they are in the same cabinet?
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 8:26 pm

Ummm, I thought we were talking about car audio. You are going to put 6x9s in your living room? Odd...

Seriously, you can have an 8" or 10" SUBWOOFER that produces very low sounds. The goal is not to break windows in neighboring cars, but to reproduce those deep sounds that make the music 'feel' good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subwoofer wrote:
A subwoofer is a woofer, or a complete loudspeaker dedicated to the reproduction of bass audio frequencies, from perhaps 150 Hz down as far as 20 Hz, or in rare cases lower.

There's no reason it can't be 8". Why take up the space of a 12" when you can get the same frequencies from 8". Unless your goal is to 'boom' everybody else out...

I have no doubt those speakers will sound awesome in a high end home sound system, but I am also certain I would never ever spend that much on speakers.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 8:37 pm

Unfortunately for you, shintsu, this is a thread about car speakers in a car audio forum, at a car bulletin board. No one, including you, was mentioned home audio equipment, because it has no place in this dicussion.

But since you brought it up, those mission pilastros you are speaking of, take a look at the crossover frequencies it uses. For those four side-firing 8" drivers, they are all wired together, crossed over at 110 hz and below. By definition, they are subwoofers, whether you want to admit it or not.

A subwoofer is not defined by the name on the box, it's the range in which it plays. If a woofer is only playing 25-110 hz, it's a sub. If it's playing higher, it's called a midwoofer (midbass) or a midrange if no bass is produced.

If you want to truly understand the audiophile hobby, you need to read a few books on how speakers work. You need to build a few systems and see how drivers, enclosures, and dividing networks affect sound reproduction. Until then, everything you have to say on the subject is an assumption based only on your own ears and your own brain. For me it's not only inaccurate, it creates unecessary confusion for members who are trying to make real decisions regarding car audio. That's the difference between what you and I have to say. I'm here to help someone better their audio system based on experience, and you're here to... make sure that this doesn't happen? Or is there something of value you're contributing that I'm not aware of?

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 8:40 pm

BTW I looked up the frequency response of the Infinity Kappas:
35 - 25K Hz. So they will produce some pretty low frequencies, if not with the 'strength' a sub can put behind them.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 8:44 pm

They won't play flat to that depth, deek. While 35hz is possible, you won't hear it at the same level as the rest of the music. My experience with the kappas, they are best above 100 hz. Cross them over at a lower point, and you limit how loud they can be cleanly played. Good speakers, better with a sub to compliment.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 8:46 pm

AA wrote:
They won't play flat to that depth, deek. While 35hz is possible, you won't hear it at the same level as the rest of the music. My experience with the kappas, they are best above 100 hz. Cross then over at a lower point, and you limit how loud they can be cleanly played.

Oh sure, I don't expect full power near the threshold of it's abilities, but still 35 is pretty low. 100 is probably a good place to cross them out. Let the sub handle <100
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Shintsu
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 04, 2009 8:52 pm

It is the woofer of the speaker. It is not powered seperate from the speaker, it takes the same sound the mid and tweeter receive and plays the bass from it. Therefore, it is not a subwoofer. Normally a sub is a seperate box that is either wired between the speakers and the receiver or is plugged in via LFE and processes all the low frequencies below the threshold you set.

I made a reference to it in my other post and I thought you were referring to home audio. You misinterpret what I say, since you think I can't tell the difference from a woofer and a subwoofer (which contains usually one woofer).

I make no implications of knowing all there is to know about car audio (Nor do I honestly care). I spend my money on home audio, not car audio. I was simply replying to what you said about subwoofers. Truly though, you're here to help someone with what your idea of a good car audio system is. You're biased just like any person is about audio since audio is all about perception. Some people think Bose speakers are wonderful - I think they're awful. You're just spreading your own ideas and opinions and you think you're right because you happen to know how speakers and audio will perform in given situations. Anyone is capable of making a judgement on speakers and technically speaking, someone probably thinks every kind of speaker is good. There's someone who loves the Sony speakers, JVC speakers, RCA speakers, Boston Acoustics, etc etc. You're not the end all be all of car speaker choice...
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 05, 2009 9:10 am

Shintsu wrote:
Some people think Bose speakers are wonderful - I think they're awful.
...
There's someone who loves the Sony speakers, JVC speakers, RCA speakers, Boston Acoustics, etc etc.

Something to think about - Bose makes many different speakers of the same size, as do many of the other brands. I bought some Pioneer 5-1/4 speakers for my front doors and they were total crap. No doubt it's because I bought the cheapest speakers I could find and said to myself 'oh they'll be fine, whatever they are in the front doors'. I was so wrong. They sounded like crap. But - Pioneer does make better speakers that DO sound good. The Pioneers I bought were $30. The Infinity's were closer to $80 (I forget the exact price). I'm sure there are other speakers out there, maybe even pioneers, that sound just as good. It's not about the brand name, it's about the specific speaker you are looking at. Same goes for many products you'll find. Just because the eggbeater at Wal-Mart for $7 was made by GE and it's a piece of crap doesn't mean GE only makes crap appliances. Just don't shop at Wal-Mart unless you only want the cheapest stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 05, 2009 12:46 pm

Agree, brand name alone is not enough to make or break a product's performance. That's why you can't say "BMW is better than Ford", because a Ford GT is better in near every regard when compared to a BMW 318i, or even a 7 series.

Stereophile magazine did a review of the $35k Mission Pilastro speakers that Shintsu mentioned. Here's what they said about the bass response:

"The only dynamic speaker I have used in my system with the same bass quality was the Sony ES SS-M9ED, which I reviewed in August 2001."

So here is a $35k pair of towers with bass response matched by a decade old Sony product - demonstrating deekster's point.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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Shintsu
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Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 05, 2009 1:41 pm

AA, a 318ti is better than a Ford GT. Not for speed, but in everything else. I've seen videos on youtube of stock Corvettes (Not ZO6s or ZR1s, just standard C6 Vettes) beating them. Not to mention they're fawking ugly and sound like ass.

Additionally, those are $16k a pair Sony speakers. Given Sony's general low quality speakers, this would be their highest product I'd gather. This is probably not even a Sony speaker, only one that carries their name:
Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 Ssm91

So having the same bass quality means nothing about the other regards. That would be like me saying "Look, a GTO gets 20 mpg and so does the Riviera" and saying "Yep, the GTO isn't that good because older cars got the same mileage". You took into account no other aspects of the speaker, and if you're going to be sold on only one feature and not interested in any other, you're a terribly unreliable and inaccurate assistance to anyone. The only thing you can solely base a speaker on and be helpful is imaging - and imaging is a compliation of many factors of the speaker to produce a realistic sound stage. Saying it's good or bad based on bass only or treble only would be as stupid as saying it's bad because the speaker isn't the color wood your furniture happens to be...
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Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Infinity speakers, need help!   Infinity speakers, need help! - Page 2 Empty

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