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 Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod

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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 01, 2008 10:45 am

Fixed the hose problem last night. First I tried to rotate the hoses at the fitting in the bracket. This didn't work, as they would just rotate back with the wheel straight. I didn't want to use zip-ties, but it seems to be the best way for now.

Tried going around the strut, but didn't like the way it bent the line at max turn, so I used the hole for the stock strut bracket to loop the tie through. I left some slack for the line to flex, and just enough so that the line and tire can't touch. Here's a view of the passenger side with wheel turned left:



Here's a view with wheel turned right:



Another view showing clearance with wheel turned right:



So far, there are no more contact issues. My only concern at this point is how long the zip-ties will hold up. Will check them for wear next time the wheels are off.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 01, 2008 2:47 pm

Wow, lots of work and parts and possible contact issues and other stuff. Yet another area where the Riv fails at being modded simply. Eh, no thanks mine already stops good so I'll just leave them alone. On a side note, could they have made the Riv any more mod unfriendly?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 01, 2008 3:17 pm

See it how you like, but the hoses are the only real issue here. Zip-ties are not the best-looking fastener, but they do the job. There's no reason for anyone to make custom brake lines for the Riviera application. Only a dozen people at most are going to do it.

This is an inexpensive, easy to do, and noticeable performance mod. If anything, the Riv is mod-friendly in this regard. GM makes a Buick lux-cruiser that allows bolt-on compatibility with 2-piston SS Camaro brakes with near 20% more pad area than stock. Can you bold on Mustang Cobra brakes to a Mark VIII? Can you put Lambo brakes on an Audi? Porsche calipers on a VW? Maybe, I don't know.

If you see this too difficult, I don't know why. I couldn't see how it could get much easier. I put these on and changed my brake fluid in 4 hours! I drove the car 250 miles the next day. Take your car up to 95 mph and slam on the brakes, then tell me how it stops good. I did this yesterday and was amazed at how fast the car slowed down.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


Last edited by AA on Thu May 01, 2008 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 01, 2008 3:17 pm

AA- I didn't have that problem but then again I'm running much larger wheels. If you don't like the ziptie you could always go to 20" rims wink
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 01, 2008 3:22 pm

Because most everyone here has a '97 or newer. If not, they have a '95 (The oddball year). For some reason the '96 is the odd year out on here with not too many around here. I'm totally inexperienced at any car modifying so at this point most everything looks intimidating to me. I like the idea that cars that have mods made for them (i.e. Civics, Mustangs, etc.) have instructions or just bolt in easily with no confusion.

You all claim that sway bar makes a big diffrence too but some of you said they didn't fit and had to do some other work to make them fit. I just don't think this car is suited for mods too well. As long as there wasn't anything else special between persay an Audi and Lambo like extra connectors or something you probably could fit one on there but the issue then is the price (Aren't the high end brakes that are optional on Lambos like a 16k option?).
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 01, 2008 7:19 pm

Thanks Aaron for showing that problem. Thats one less problem to surprise me during my upgrade.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 15, 2008 9:21 am

Update: after 3 weeks of the daily grind with the new brakes, I started noticing a few things odd. First, about a week ago, I heard a popping sound that seemed random, but then noticed it happened when braking in reverse, then braking for the first time going forward. After a day, this sound went away.

Not long afterward, I noticed my pads would screech at some odd times, like when taking curves, or just whenever they wanted. Once they just started on the freeway, then stopped. Strange.

For the next couple days, it went pretty well, but I noticed the front end felt a bit sloppy. Thinking it was in my head, I ignored this, but it got worse. It just felt like something was loose, like a stabilizer bar, or a strut, or a control arm... or a caliper.

So last night I cranked my wheels left and right, found that both calipers could be wobbled by hand! All four of the 18mm bolts that hold them on were just past finger tight. I tightened them up pretty good this time. Car is now back to normal. Yes, I'm sure I tightened them 3 weeks ago. It's the last thing I did, I remember very well.

This surprised me, because the old bolts seemed to get tighter as time went on. I had to use an impact to get those suckers off - every time. I actually considered using anti-seize, but never did. The new F-Body bolts are narrower, don't use the iron spacer ring, but have an 18mm head instead of Buick's 15mm. I will check them in a couple of weeks. Maybe some thread locker will be needed.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 15, 2008 9:26 am

AHHHHHHHHHH.... that wouldn't have been much fun for you AA!!!!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 15, 2008 9:30 am

No, not fun. Good news was, they were nowhere near coming all the way out... yet. Also, you can check/tighten them with the car on the ground. Takes about 2 mins.

Still, it's something to be aware of. Everyone doing this mod should check these bolts after a couple thousand miles.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 15, 2008 9:34 am

AA wrote:
No, not fun. Good news was, they were nowhere near coming all the way out... yet. Also, you can check/tighten them with the car on the ground. Takes about 2 mins.

Still, it's something to be aware of. Everyone doing this mod should check these bolts after a couple thousand miles.

Makes me think to check my stockers before the tranny goes in


btw about less than 2-3 days before the riv is ROLLIN again
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 15, 2008 9:40 am

Check them, but I've never had a problem with the stock caliper bolts. Always snugged them up tight after doing the brakes, but not too tight. I was afraid of them seizing. Without an impact gun, mine were near impossible to break each time I took them off. PB Blaster is a dear friend!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


Last edited by AA on Thu May 15, 2008 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 15, 2008 9:44 am

AA wrote:
Check them, I have never had a problem with the stock caliper bolts. Always snugged them up tight after doing the brakes, but not too tight. I was afraid of them seizing. Without an impact gun, mine were near impossible to break each time I took them off. PB Blaster is a dear friend!

1/2 inch breaker bar.......... we dont have air tools at my house........ but A TON of wrenches and sockets lol .............
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 15, 2008 9:54 am

Before I got the impact, I used a 1/2 ratchet. First time, I'm not kidding, on driver side, I put the ratchet handle on a hydraulic jack. Could see it compressing the suspension as I jacked it up. Thought I was either going to break the wrench or lift the car off the stand!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 15, 2008 3:41 pm

AA wrote:
Thought I was either going to break the wrench or lift the car off the stand!

When did you start taking steroids?wink


Last edited by 98riviera98 on Thu May 15, 2008 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu May 15, 2008 4:04 pm

AA wrote:
I put the ratchet handle on a hydraulic jack.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Tue May 27, 2008 12:16 pm

Update: After over a month installed, I took the car on a pretty hard drive through the hills, enough to push the brakes into moderate fading. As a result, I could smell the pad compound, and afterward the calipers and wheels were covered in black dust. I used some Blast degreaser and water hose to clean the calipers - they look bright yellow again, like the day they were installed! The paint shows no signs of cracking, appears to be some pretty good product!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Tue May 27, 2008 9:10 pm

I'd love to have those 13" rotors, but on the other hand it might be wise to be able to put the stock rims back on for winter driving. Tough call! Could use advice - especially if it comes in the form of "the 13" brake mod will fit under the stock rims."

Othewise, I dunno - a cheapie 17" rim with winter tires? Or stick with a 12" rotor.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

I'm very happy with 12" rotors. Just get some good slotted discs, and you'll be set.

Or I can have my 12" drilled rotors turned and sell to you for a good price.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed May 28, 2008 12:15 am

I'm doing the F-body brake mod, one way or the other, sooner or later . . .

I'm sure they must make a 13" rotor for a reason. I wonder what the advantage is, if the calipers are the same? Less fade? More leverage on the disk yielding greater stopping power for the same caliper pressure? Or maybe the extra inertia of the disk outweighs the leverage the caliper has?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed May 28, 2008 1:51 am

I look at it this way. In racing conditions, a 13" rotor will take more heat and warp less, but it weighs more. So they probably won't stop you any faster, but they will stop you for a longer time without fade or failure.

And what can we use to upgrade the rear rotors? I know the fronts do most of the work, but it seems unbalanced to me to leave the stockers back there, with behemoth 13"ers up front. The rears do some work at higher speed, and we're already front heavy as is...

I found this interesting: The Pontiac G8 GT has 12.64" vented discs up front, and 12.76" vented discs in back. MotorTrend's review mentioned the braking spec for this car is 60-0 in 112 ft - 25 fewer than the SRT-8, which has 13 discs up front. 112 ft is beyond phenominal, it's Porsche 911 Turbo territory. I wonder if having the bigger rotors in back has anything to do with it?

Imo, the real anvantages of the F-body mod are the extra pad area, more even pressure distribution, and the aluminum caliper. I'm guessing you get 15-20% more pad surface = more friction, and better heat transfer to the caliper.

Dual pistons are going to do a better job of using that pad area, too. Imagine taking a pad in your hands and pushing it against a spinning rotor. Would you rather be pushing with one hand or two?

The calipers are larger, so they have more surface area to dissipate heat, but made of aluminum, so they're lighter than stock (lower unsprung mass).

To really get more out of the 13" rotors, I would want to use even larger calipers and pads to take advantage of the extra surface contact that is available.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed May 28, 2008 11:14 am

Isn't Oldsman looking into an upgrade for the rear rotors? It could be possible. We're always figuring things out.

The 13" upgrade uses the same calipers as the 12" upgrade, right? Are there any differences, other than the rotors?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed May 28, 2008 11:27 am

If he or anyone else does, I'm all over it. I feel like they are undersized as is. Would be nice to fit some thicker, vented discs on the back to deal with the higher speed slow downs. If I could fit vented 11"s on, I would.

Unless I missed something, the 13" discs would use the same calipers and pads. I guess I don't understand the point unless you take advantage of the extra rotor surface by using bigger pads/calipers. It's a bigger heat sink for sure, that's it.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed May 28, 2008 12:07 pm

Jack the R wrote:
Isn't Oldsman looking into an upgrade for the rear rotors? It could be possible. We're always figuring things out.

The 13" upgrade uses the same calipers as the 12" upgrade, right? Are there any differences, other than the rotors?

I will be ordering 2003 park avenue rear brake calipers ( should allow a 11.7" rotor to fit ) And see if the GP GXP rear rotors will fit under them (they are vented) next month . Stay tuned

(and I will actually do a full write up this time as my last 2 attempts have failed study )

AA wrote:
If he or anyone else does, I'm all over it. I feel like they are undersized as is. Would be nice to fit some thicker, vented discs on the back to deal with the higher speed slow downs. If I could fit vented 11"s on, I would.

Unless I missed something, the 13" discs would use the same calipers and pads. I guess I don't understand the point unless you take advantage of the extra rotor surface by using bigger pads/calipers. It's a bigger heat sink for sure, that's it.

The Pads are slightly bigger. The further out the caliper is brought out the better the stopping power. Like the GP guys that just to the 10.9" to 12" bracket upgrade without changing the caliper. My brackets are slightly bigger rock .
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed May 28, 2008 1:14 pm

Yes, that makes sense. I hope the rear brakes work out. Your car is going to stop quick. We need to figure out how to measure stopping distance.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed May 28, 2008 1:18 pm

Well the Grand Prix GXP stops from 60mph in 132 feet. So I guess we can use that as the benchmark for stopping potential.
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» Write-Up: Make a Brake Bleeder
» Write-Up: GXP Brake Caliper + Rotor Conversion
» Write-Up: Northstar Throttle Body Install

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Riviera Performance ::   General Tech :: Brakes & Suspension-
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