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 Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod

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chitown_riv98
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:43 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:
Slanted in (towards the engine) would indicate a camber issue. moving the top mounts should only effect the caster angle.
If the strut it bent that would be the first ive heard of that happening.
You could always try camber bolts. those should give more angle room when aligning the car.


I thought it was odd also.  I actually think it might be bad wheelbearing. My abs light is on and I've been hearing rumbling noise from that wheel.  I'm going to put it in the air once it warms up over here in Chicago.
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:56 pm

Calipers ordered. Just saving up for some brake lines, struts, rotors, and pads now. Will probably order them soonish.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:07 pm



Done: Everything is painted, everything is here minus the rotors which should be in tomorrow or so, SS brake lines are already installed on the car.

To Do: Order bolts to secure the hub to the knuckle (I'm not sure if the 96 ones will work and why put rusty old bolts on something nice and new?), order caliper bracket bolts (again, not sure if the 96 ones are the same as 97+), drill/tap caliper brackets, maybe touch up the calipers/brackets with more paint, maybe paint the dust shield once it's off the car because new ones are freakin' expensive.

Unknowns: Besides not knowing if the 96 hub and caliper bolts will work (ordering new ones anyways) I don't know if the strut bolts will line up/work but we shall see on Friday when I go to install everything.

Questions: Can I just get regular bolts from the hardware store, and if so what grade? I can find the thread dimensions while I'm there but if somebody knows them that would help. I already asked this one already and got a pretty unanimous "yes", but I'll repeat it here. Say the 2 knuckle bolts don't line up with the 2 holes on the strut. Could I elongate the top hole to make it work? My last question is can 96 springs/top mounts work on 97+ struts? I'll do my struts at the same time if they do, otherwise I'll put them off until later.
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:34 pm

How noticeable were the SS lines?
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:13 pm

charlieRobinson wrote:
How noticeable were the SS lines?

Meh. Do them if you plan on doing the F-body's or if your lines are rotted.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:04 am

Depends on what wheels you have too.  With my wheels I can see my SS lines pretty clearly. If you're talking about from an improvement point of view. I don't think they make any difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:22 pm

Quote :
Can I just get regular bolts from the hardware store, and if so what grade? I can find the thread dimensions while I'm there but if somebody knows them that would help.

Check the heads of the screws for codes. Note that metric uses higher numbers, so take into consideration if the new fasteners use the standard system (not sure if metric threads can have standard codes - it's possible).



My guess is our OEM screws are a grade 5 or 8 (8.8 or 10.9 metric).

Quote :
How noticeable were the SS lines?

It's more than for looks. Mine had noticeable increase in pedal firmness vs. OEM. You can actually see OEM rubber lines swell in diameter under pressure, if you watch closely. The resulting extra volume in the OEM line results in a softer "bottom". Not spongy, just soft. SS braided lines have less expansion, a more solid bottom, especially with our longer 20"+ lines.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:54 pm

AA wrote:
My guess is our OEM screws are a grade 5 or 8 (8.8 or 10.9 metric).


Quote :
How noticeable were the SS lines?


It's more than for looks. Mine had noticeable increase in pedal firmness vs. OEM. You can actually see OEM rubber lines swell in diameter under pressure, if you watch closely. The resulting extra volume in the OEM line results in a softer "bottom". Not spongy, just soft. SS braided lines have less expansion, a more solid bottom, especially with our longer 20"+ lines.

I was going to get some grade 8/10.9 bolts because if you snap those you probably have bigger issues at hand.

As far as the brake lines there was a bit more firmness and it seemed harder to bottom them out, but nothing really worth doing just as an upgrade.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:10 pm

matt270avian wrote:

AA wrote:
My guess is our OEM screws are a grade 5 or 8 (8.8 or 10.9 metric).



Quote :
How noticeable were the SS lines?



It's more than for looks. Mine had noticeable increase in pedal firmness vs. OEM. You can actually see OEM rubber lines swell in diameter under pressure, if you watch closely. The resulting extra volume in the OEM line results in a softer "bottom". Not spongy, just soft. SS braided lines have less expansion, a more solid bottom, especially with our longer 20"+ lines.


I was going to get some grade 8/10.9 bolts because if you snap those you probably have bigger issues at hand.

As far as the brake lines there was a bit more firmness and it seemed harder to bottom them out, but nothing really worth doing just as an upgrade.

Dont forget to add these http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1023678&cc=1022038 They come in handy at alignment time.Let the alignment guy know you have them
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:31 pm

robotennis61 wrote:
Dont forget to add these     http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1023678&cc=1022038    They come in handy at alignment time.Let the alignment guy know you have them

Are those just for added camber? Either way my car was pretty straight when I got it aligned last so I shouldn't have to worry about it never being straight again.
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robotennis61
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:07 pm

matt270avian wrote:

robotennis61 wrote:
Dont forget to add these     http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1023678&cc=1022038    They come in handy at alignment time.Let the alignment guy know you have them


Are those just for added camber? Either way my car was pretty straight when I got it aligned last so I shouldn't have to worry about it never being straight again.

I found out that modding does alter things a bit.They're cheap assurance.If you go lower too, eventually you will need them
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:30 pm

robotennis61 wrote:
I found out that modding does alter things a bit.They're cheap assurance.If you go lower too, eventually you will need them

Next time I'm in there I'll grab a set. If I do them one at a time I shouldn't have to go get an alignment again, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:05 am

Quote :
I was going to get some grade 8/10.9 bolts because if you snap those you probably have bigger issues at hand.

You might be okay doing this, but I reused my OEM screws. They weren't that corroded - I think the OEM spacers are aluminum?

Re: bolt grades, consider the factory might use a lower grade for a reason. It could be preferable for the caliper screws to fail, if say a mechanic over-torqued with an impact or breaker bar - it won't strip out the threads from the upright, and is easier to drill out.

Here's a thread where a Porsche 911 owner shears off a caliper bolt with a 30" breaker bar - just sayin', if it can happen to a Porsche owner, it can happen to a Buick owner.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/411517-weak-brake-caliper-bolts.html

In the thread, one member has this to say:

"Lots of research has been done on various materials and simple things like bolts.

From fatigue testing, they have figured out that a bolt needs to be tensioned to just below its yield strength, for optimum fatigue life. For the kinds of steel we are talking about here, that's about 60% of its ultimate tensile strength. In these fatigue tests, bolts that were tensioned to values significantly below their yield stress failed much earlier than those tensioned properly.

If rusnak, or his minions, bought a bolt with a significantly higher ultimate strength, then installed it using the same torque value for the el cheapo bolt, it would be tensioned to a value significantly below its yield strength, which is a bad thing, according to the testing that has been done."


Normally I'd dismiss this kind of talk as "perfect world" theory. But with brakes you have a lot of rapid heat cycling into very high temperatures. And you have some tremendous forces being applied - more than the engine can produce. So the bracket bolts aren't an area GM would skimp on, imo. If you search for caliper bracket bolt failure, it's near impossible to find any instances. If it ain't broke...

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:19 am

AA wrote:

Quote :
I was going to get some grade 8/10.9 bolts because if you snap those you probably have bigger issues at hand.


You might be okay doing this, but I reused my OEM screws. They weren't that corroded - I think the OEM spacers are aluminum?

That's kind of interesting. If that's the case I'll just reuse the OEM ones as long as they fit. I'll still grab new ones just so I don't get stuck if the OEM ones don't fit. As far as my original post I should have been clearer (sorry) because I meant the hub/bearing bolts.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:35 am

You will most definitely need an alignment!
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:25 am

robotennis61 wrote:
You will most definitely need an alignment!

Even if I do them 1 at a time without moving the knuckle?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:44 am

ANY time you remove a strut, Lower Control Arm, or Tie Rod you toss the front end out of alignment. The slightest change on Camber will change the Toe set.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:01 am

Abaddon wrote:
ANY time you remove a strut, Lower Control Arm, or Tie Rod you toss the front end out of alignment. The slightest change on Camber will change the Toe set.

We're just talking about those camber bolts he posted. I know I'll need an alignment with the new knuckle and I'm getting one on Saturday after everything is installed.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:09 am

Ah. Missed it  dunce . I suppose if you pull 1 at a time out you'll be ok. Carry on lol
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:29 am

Yeah,what Scott sed.I don't get it,you're going to do what first?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:36 pm

robotennis61 wrote:
Yeah,what Scott sed.I don't get it,you're going to do what first?  

I'm doing the knuckles/hubs/rotors/calipers/pads first, then struts/springs at a later time.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:00 pm

OK.I can't see the alignment staying true after replacing the knuckle.
Check out the string alignment vid.It works so easy on the Riv.The tie rods are so accessible.

http://youtu.be/wjZUu_d08t8

There are many string vids this is one of them

The camber is gonna get thrown off too. To adjust Camber you will need one of these

https://tinyurl.com/ntwp79l

Do your own alignments and save a bundle and align your car anytime you want.Probably do a better job too

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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:28 pm

robotennis61 wrote:
OK.I can't see the alignment staying true after replacing the knuckle.
Check out the string alignment vid.It works so easy on the Riv.The tie rods are so accessible.

Gah, read my posts. I'm getting an alignment done Saturday after I do everything tomorrow night.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:45 pm

oh,my bad.Still,do your own alignments.super easy
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: F-Body Brake Mod   Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:21 am

I should have done this upgrade way back when but... my pad piggies are squealing and i need to do this asap.

What else besides the calipers/brackets/extra long brake lines will I need? Any specific hardware?
Then I just need to tap the calipers to fit the Riv bolts?

Can the brake lines be had anywhere else or ZZP the only place that has them?

Going to get the brake lines and this kit, but what else is needed hardware wise?
POWER STOP Part # KC1547
Z23 Evolution Sport w/Caliper
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=4751397&cc=1382475&jnid=447&jpid=12


Thank you! bow
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