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 Headers or downpipe?

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TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Headers or downpipe?   Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:44 pm

ok my riv is whats in my sig...and i was wondering if headers would be more benficial that a downpipe even without a tune? or could this cause my engine to run lean and therefore knock and rob power... i would eventually like to go with a cam in the long run so i'd rather just get headers , but there is a limited amount of tuning that can be done with a 96 it seems...eventually ill probably get an AF calibrator and scanner and use that as a tuning method unless hp tuners or another company releases a tuner for a 96 , which when i emailed hptuners they said to check back in a few months. but, though an AFC is not the best it should allow me to run safely in the future with further modification. but back to the main question. headers or downpipe? also coated or uncoated stainless?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:59 pm

Go with a downpipe unless you plan on installing a cam or rockers in the future. Headers won't cause you to run lean, but you won't see much more benefit than you would with the downpipe. Headers are noisier, more expensive,and harder to install, so I recommend against it.

If you do plan to open up the engine with rockers or cam, I'd say wait and do the headers later on. And you'll want coated stainless if you're planning to do everyday driving.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:03 pm

you will be fine with headers. more exhaust will not cause a lean condition, more boost will. the pcm will readjust its values to compensate for the extra air moving through the engine. but for the money i would just get a DP and front plog wink should yield almost the same as headers IMO.

DHP's powrtuner can be used on a 96. i believe there are 1-2 people here that use it, and the only thing you cant adjust is the transmissions shifts and pressure b/c ours is vac operated.
let me know if you end up getting a tuner. i am going ot try and get a guy i know to tune my car with his DHP (L67 open software) but i dont know if it will work or not.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:06 pm

Having done a lot of modding on mine and other 3800s, I'd say go with headers first if you think you ever want to mod anything else. Make headers the first, you won't regret it later. It allows the rest of your mods a place for the air to go smile
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Jason
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:10 pm

go with headers. It is not recommended to coat 304 or 321 stainless (knock-off slps). You do need to coat 409 (real slps)
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T Riley
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:49 pm

well headers are only a FEW hundered more bucks..... and i bet its worth it man............. plus pacesetters and the knockoff's come with 3 inch downpipes....
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TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:02 am

Yeah ive been doing the math and the plog and dp if stainless ( which i would want ) would be pushing 300 bucks...the knock off slps are about that... and i think would perform at least a bit better , even on a stock riv valvetrain. and accomodate my future mods ( i'm thinking vs cam , p&p supercharger...hopefully mid 13s with that setup) and that and i love the way headers look... as long as theyre not too loud while cruising ( which according to what ive heard on here they are not) then i think i'll go with headers... i'm waiting to see the price of the wbodystore headers scheduled to be available this month.
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T Riley
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:11 am

TonySmooth89 wrote:
Yeah ive been doing the math and the plog and dp if stainless ( which i would want ) would be pushing 300 bucks...the knock off slps are about that... and i think would perform at least a bit better , even on a stock riv valvetrain. and accomodate my future mods ( i'm thinking vs cam , p&p supercharger...hopefully mid 13s with that setup) and that and i love the way headers look... as long as theyre not too loud while cruising ( which according to what ive heard on here they are not) then i think i'll go with headers... i'm waiting to see the price of the wbodystore headers scheduled to be available this month.

www.ssautochrome.com

click headers then pontiac and then they should be there........ pretty good deal i guess
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:50 am

the first thing you need to do IMHO, it buy a powertuner from DHP.

I wish I had done that mode first. Just tuning out all your knock and torque management will yield noticeable gains.

then go from there. I would go with cam/rockers for next mod.

as many would agree, the best 1st time true best mod would be from an intercooler.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:07 am

One thing I know about the real SLP headers... they've lasted 2 winters, nearly 50k, and still look almost new. I'm not sure what happens to uncoated knock-offs, given the same treatment.

Another thing, I noticed a much bigger power increase with SC pulley swap, rockers, and the DHP tuner than I did with the headers.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:36 am

hmmm.... is the dhp tuner still on the market? i cant seem to find it anywhere.
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BillBoost37
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:05 am

DHP stopped selling the tuner. You would want to find one used. There's a guy on Bonnevilleclub.com that can't figure out how to work his and may sell it cheap. 2000silverbullet is his name. Tell him Oldsman told you.

If you plan on adding rockers or a cam in the future headers would be the best route to go. Doing a Plog or DP only put off the inevitable purchase of headers adding more expense in the long run. (I know..I did it..lol)

The SLP's are nice, I didn't really see a big issue with the Pacesetters... although Olds did his research and had everything needed to make them work right. Either way..if you keep your eyes open on the GP boards you can usually find a used set for $450-500
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TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:58 am

thanks bill! i sent him a message. what do you think i should offer? 250?
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:54 am

if you're serious about getting it, i'd offer 350 depending on what parts he has to go with it. they are $400 new for the basic model and no cables.

_________________
1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:46 pm

Quote :
I'm not sure what happens to uncoated knock-offs, given the same treatment

They shouldn't rust as they are 321 SS. I find they warm up much faster than the cast iron manifolds, but they don't get very hot (like uncoated 409 would). I can put my hand fairly close to them.

For the price I paid, 220 shipped to Canada, I am not especially concerned with their longevity. I can buy 4 sets of these for the price of 1 set of real SLP's.
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:39 pm

I wrapped the stainless crossover on my cheapy ss headers with header wrap and it made a big difference in underhood heat and noise. I didn't bother to wrap the 'manifold' parts of the header, just the crossover.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:24 pm

The manifold primaries are the hottest. Would make sense to wrap them, too.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:11 am

Update: as you can see in my sig i decided on plog and downpipe. the downpipe is here and should get installed on thursday , the plog has a money order out for it and should be in in the coming weeks... i bought the plog used because ive been spending enough on my car as it is, If figured for my modest goals it should be sufficient. time will tell.
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1998 Riv
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:10 am

Have a coated Plog and crossover, and rear PEM waiting in my garage also. Can't wait to put 'em on, but I unfortunately have other car projects ahead of that work. frown
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BillBoost37
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:10 am

Be careful if you plan on wrapping the plog. Forget where..but I saw somewhere that someone had wrapped one and it rusted/cracked.

While it's doubtful you will end up with the same results..it seemed worth mentioning.
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1998 Riv
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:50 am

That definitely happened to a guy on RegalGS, running the first gen Plog, mild steel, with questionable welds. I still wouldn't wrap it, and I got mine in SS and coated.
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TonySmooth89
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:29 pm

Well i wasnt planning on wrapping it anyway...but thanks for the tips.
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BKRIV
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:57 pm

"I paid, 220 shipped to Canada"

Where did you get the knock off's Jason?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:13 pm


_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
BillBoost37
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PostSubject: Re: Headers or downpipe?   Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:28 am

I helped a buddy with a Monte Carlo install a set of the 321's on Saturday. Fitment seemed identical to SLP's. They went together nicely and the only downside to the install was his W body.

If you ever get the oppportunity to help a buddy with a W body put on some headers.... pretend to be sick..lol
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