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 Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts

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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:53 pm

Quote :
I don't think the damage from the last mount will cause any issues.
Huh?
Considering you live in a rust-zone, don't you think it would be wise to try to get that area repaired to restore the structural integrity?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:24 pm

I haven't fully figured out how I'm going to actually handle eveything once and for all yet. I sent Morad a message to find out if he can get me a whole subframe off a 98-99 riv with control arms and another set of mounts for me to do.

I'm just happy to have a mount back in the car again right now.

I'm still learning this stuff folks
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PostSubject: Passenger side motor mount.   Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:44 pm

ok so heres the deal, ive been doing a little bit of research on swapping the POS passenger side engine mount that the park avenues have for something a little more "maintenance friendly". i have been talking to billboost a bit on the other boards about this because he just had to do an engine swap on a park avenue and he also hated this mount. the park avenues passenger mount is the most poorly thought out design that i have seen. the bonnevilles have a different mount that is more like the design of our front transmission mount (bolt going through the mount horizontally, 2 separate pieces to the mount, one on the body one on the engine). this mount is ideal because it is horizontally placed, making it easy to replace it by simply unbolting and then removing either straight up or straight down, it also makes it easy to pull the engine straight up and out if your going to pull the engine. after talking to bill a bit i now hear that the riviera has yet a third design to this passenger side engine mount. im wondering if anyone here could help me out with a few pictures of what your passenger engine mounts look like (placement/mounting points) to see if your mount might be easier to modify than the bonnevilles to work on my park avenue.
pictures of the park avenue and bonneville mounts are available upon request if anyone else is interested, thanks in advance.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:46 am

bump

nobody has any info on this?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:06 pm

The Window Weld is thick as hell. I like to warm it up a bit before I use it, to soften it up. I've heard that the poly will actually shrink and get "loose" over time. The Window Weld stays pliable while maintaining it's hardness. I only got a tiny bit more engine vibration in the cabin over stock using this. It's funny, I can hammer the gas in park, and the ass end dips down lol.

If you clean the inside of the mount to bare metal, scuff the existing rubber, clean with a good brake cleaner, use the appropriate Primer on all surfaces that the Window Weld is going to touch, it will last a looooong time.

Here is a link for the Primer.
http://www.goferauto.com/3msistpr0830.html

I have a case of the Window Weld. Problem is, it's not the super fast. It took like 2 weeks for my mount to fully cure. I kept poking it with mechanics wire until the end came out dry, kinda like baking a cake I love it though. It works awesome. I actually went as far as calling the 3M product hotline and talked to a rep. I asked him about using it as an engine mount filler. He told me that, although he can't recommend it and say whether it will work, he knew of quite a few ppl that use it and they love it. It's also a moisture-curing urethane. If the humidity level is low, it takes longer to cure. I even asked if I could drop the mount in a bucket of water to dry faster, he laughed.

This is how it turned out



Notice how the urethane sticks out farther than the mount. I made a "cap" for both sides. Over-filled it and squeezed out any excess air that may have been trapped. After it dries, trim it, and this is the final result.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:29 pm

thats super cool. takes a while to cure though.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:38 pm

robotennis61 wrote:
thats super cool. takes a while to cure though.
The tube I bought from Advance Auto Parts is 3m Super Fast setting and curing window weld.
I'll have to get the part number for you. And I'll see what the instructions say about actual cure time. But based on the name of this product I don't think it is anywhere near what Abaddon went through. But if I had a case of the product he has I'd use it also. Just need spare mounts to work with and when they are finished in the Easy Bake Oven then you can install them.
I don't think heat helps to cure this Super Fast product from what I remember reading on the label.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:12 pm

Rickw wrote:
robotennis61 wrote:
thats super cool. takes a while to cure though.
The tube I bought from Advance Auto Parts is 3m Super Fast setting and curing window weld.
I'll have to get the part number for you. And I'll see what the instructions say about actual cure time. But based on the name of this product I don't think it is anywhere near what Abaddon went through. But if I had a case of the product he has I'd use it also. Just need spare mounts to work with and when they are finished in the Easy Bake Oven then you can install them.
I don't think heat helps to cure this Super Fast product from what I remember reading on the label.

interesting! i am tired of F.....g around with the bushings,am gonna do what others have done and pour my own. will this stuff do what poly does for bushings? i mean if it works...ill get some.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:18 pm

robotennis61 wrote:
Rickw wrote:
robotennis61 wrote:
thats super cool. takes a while to cure though.
The tube I bought from Advance Auto Parts is 3m Super Fast setting and curing window weld.
I'll have to get the part number for you. And I'll see what the instructions say about actual cure time. But based on the name of this product I don't think it is anywhere near what Abaddon went through. But if I had a case of the product he has I'd use it also. Just need spare mounts to work with and when they are finished in the Easy Bake Oven then you can install them.
I don't think heat helps to cure this Super Fast product from what I remember reading on the label.

interesting! i am tired of F.....g around with the bushings,am gonna do what others have done and pour my own. will this stuff do what poly does for bushings? i mean if it works...ill get some.

What do you mean your tired of messing around with bushings? Have you used these products before and tried to fix or firm up a mount with this product or any other.?
Please explain, so I don't go down the same frustrating path you seem to have.

What have you done to date with bushings or mounts to make them better.?

Thanks for any input. I haven't used any of the mentioned products yet, so I'm interested in your experience with them.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:12 pm

f...g around i mean trying to find a source to fab up the bushings for my 95. really expensive,requiring me to send them the control arm or arms. bull shit! it seems to me that this material will be passive enough to handle the stresses of a motor mount,and not get all crazy and tear itself apart. but for control arm bushings it might need something that can stand repeated movement of say..a control arm and all the forces its subjected to,maybe poly will be better for that? I don't have any experience besides the hockey puck mod for the front cradle. i recall E-wolf doing making his own 2 part poly pour for his mounts,i think it was him,so i wonder if its just the same stuff that "Energy suspension" uses for theirs? its just polyurethane,and its not bonded to the insides of the control arms. the poly bushings they sell for say,Honda's,are just poly inserts that go in place of the stockers. i cant believe they have a magical formula for their bushings. ill call mcmaster carr Monday,god willing,and talk to them for a solution and answer back.....
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:39 pm

Now I understand your frustration. Your trying to solve your Control Arm bushing issue. Threw me a curve ball in the cradle thread.
I wish I had a set of spent controls arms from my year car I could send you for comparison purposes. From what I saw today after having a close look at my control arm bushings, we were checking them for wear with a crow bar wedged in between the frame of the car and the control arms and jerking them around to see how much movement I had. We determined they were still good with 114K miles on it. Anyway the composition of the material I think would be very hard to duplicate on your own. But you could certainly try a polyurethane from Mcmaster-Carr and experiment with different durometers, but that will be labor intensive if you have to keep going back and trying something different, but I think overall it would be doable.
That is why whatever company you may have contacted to make custom bushings wants a lot of money. They will probably be pouring a certain type of poly into a steel bushing made special for your control arm and then press that into the arms. Time and materials equals big dollars. I don't know what will work, just thinking out loud.
I thought I had worn bushings but found that wasn't the case. But if I needed a set, I could buy them. I can't imagine the frustration of knowing I needed a set and couldn't buy them.
I would be where you are, willing to experiment with Polyurethane and pour it into the voids after chiseling out the bad bushings.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:00 am

I hear that my friend! im all for just ordering a set of smaller diameter bushings and buying locally,steel sleeves to make up the difference. my paint and body has my thought priority,so..once paint is done,and i win riv of the month status tongue ill concentrate on bushings.....and mounts...
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:33 am

Rickw wrote:
turtleman wrote:

The cradle mount situation is getting worse. The two (out of 4) in the back have long since let go and it looks like the other on the rear passenger side is loose as hell. That would explain my noises.
The first post on this issue from you was in Jun of 2008. Is this the same problem that you just let slide or this a recurring problem.????

If this is the same problem from 2008 then I don't need to be too concerned, although I do want to replace them VERY soon.

I need to know because Derek found my rear 2 washers rotted off today and the rest aren't that pretty either. Do you have any spares or should I just order from the dealer.?
Do you have any P/N's of the washers, they are all the same P/N aren't they.?

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Jun of '08 is when I was doing my cam and trans swap and just happened to notice that 1 mount was missing the lower retainer - making it pretty much non-functioning from a support standpoint. It got me thinkin' about it a little but I still had 5 presumably good at the time so yeah, I let it slide.
As of now I have two missing retainers (the two in the middle) and the rear passenger corner loose. There has been audible and just barely detectable vibration signs of this for a little while now. I'm sure having a bad front and rear trans mount is not helping them along either.

I got all the hardware from the dealer and the insulators from Ewolfe but from what I recall, they didn't have an easy time getting some of the pieces. It took a few weeks for some of the stuff. What I have extra of is the lower retainers. I have 4 and depending on how it goes when I do it, I may have extra top nuts. I have all 6 but so far the only ones I see any way of replacing is the middle ones which are the ones which is good because those are the ones I'm having a problem with where the bolt just spins.

The part numbers for the hardware are all the same. The insulators are different for each location. I have part numbers for everything in my FSM but they could conceivably be different depending on the year and I'm pretty sure some have updated numbers as well. I kept the invoices for mine if you want those.
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PostSubject: temp mount   Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:41 am

Abaddon wrote:
The Window Weld is thick as hell. I like to warm it up a bit before I use it, to soften it up. I've heard that the poly will actually shrink and get "loose" over time. The Window Weld stays pliable while maintaining it's hardness. I only got a tiny bit more engine vibration in the cabin over stock using this. It's funny, I can hammer the gas in park, and the ass end dips down lol.

If you clean the inside of the mount to bare metal, scuff the existing rubber, clean with a good brake cleaner, use the appropriate Primer on all surfaces that the Window Weld is going to touch, it will last a looooong time.

Here is a link for the Primer.
http://www.goferauto.com/3msistpr0830.html

I have a case of the Window Weld. Problem is, it's not the super fast. It took like 2 weeks for my mount to fully cure. I kept poking it with mechanics wire until the end came out dry, kinda like baking a cake I love it though. It works awesome. I actually went as far as calling the 3M product hotline and talked to a rep. I asked him about using it as an engine mount filler. He told me that, although he can't recommend it and say whether it will work, he knew of quite a few ppl that use it and they love it. It's also a moisture-curing urethane. If the humidity level is low, it takes longer to cure. I even asked if I could drop the mount in a bucket of water to dry faster, he laughed.

This is how it turned out



Notice how the urethane sticks out farther than the mount. I made a "cap" for both sides. Over-filled it and squeezed out any excess air that may have been trapped. After it dries, trim it, and this is the final result.

I'm digging that. I had a pretty tough time with the poly for my front and it didn't work out well at all. I definitely want to keep the original rubber and sleeve in it this time. Part of my original problem was that I didn't use the adhesive but I still would have had the same alignment issue - looked perfect when I was looking at the mount and pouring but was off when I installed it. Between using a harder poly and the window weld, it's a toss up for me. The poly, I think, would be harder but the window weld is way easier to work with since it is more viscous while wet so you can get a little more clever with the molding like you did. I'm hoping that this new rear I ordered works out so I have a fresh mount to start with. The front, I'll have to get a spare from a yard or something but I gotta figure out, first, which front mount I'll even be using with this new cradle. It could be a redesigned hockey puck style mount.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:03 pm

At the yard, I noticed pretty much every full size car that had a 3.8 had this for a front trans mount.


These were pretty much all on the older side though and the subframe cannot be confused with what we've got. Those all have sort of an extra seam on the front that mates with that funky front mount.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:58 pm

so that would be the late '80s early '90s BOP (buick park ave/olds 98/pontiac bonneville) mount?

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:26 pm

What you took pictures of have nothing to do with our cars, be it an riv or a Bonneville. None of those pic's helped us get closer to what we need. Why post them.?
Is there something you see that i don't. If so I'm sorry.
Rick
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:05 pm

Rickw wrote:
What you took pictures of have nothing to do with our cars, be it an riv or a Bonneville. None of those pic's helped us get closer to what we need. Why post them.?
Is there something you see that i don't. If so I'm sorry.
Rick

eh I guess I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about what's all out there and what can and cannot be candidates for the swap. I know now from what I saw there that if one was looking for a donor cradle to use, anything with that mount up front is out for sure. I also need to see this stuff myself to understand what people are talking about when they are describing something like a mount. I was asking Morad some questions about this cradle and I had a hard time picturing some of this stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:34 am

Those pics are of front mounts, meaning they support the engine near the radiator? Or, are they side mounts?

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PostSubject: temp   Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:05 pm

they are the front trans mount - connect trans to the front of the cradle just like our mount there.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Tue May 10, 2011 10:31 am

I did the hockey puck engine mount mod this past weekend (in addition to a filled rubber rear mount). I decided to try a slightly different version, which only requires two pucks, a piece of black iron pipe as a sleeve (5/8" OD, 1/2" ID, 3.9" L) - no Bonneville mounting bracket required. Two stacked pucks is exactly the thickness of the PEM mount, and the puck diameter is a perfect fit for the OEM bracket, with slight modification.

Old front mount:






Pressing sleeve into pucks:




"Slight Modification":


Press new mount into OEM bracket:




After installing, there is definately a lot less movement in the engine bay, and more vibration in the cabin. It felt odd at first, because I can now feel the cylinders fire individually, which makes the engine seem less smooth, but more responsive. It feels like a sports car now, not an old Buick. It didn't take long before I started appreciating it. Feeling the engine through the wheel and floor and seat keeps me updated with feedback at low RPM and under heavy throttle, but at cruise it's not very noticeable. Before I was isolated from the engine, giving the illusion it ran smooth. If something's off, you might not have detected it as easily before, but you'll know it for sure with these mounts!

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'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Tue May 10, 2011 11:38 am

Looks nice and neat, great result! So correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume the need for this mod is because the OEM are discontinued or because you prefer the improved strength of the pucks?

Oh, also, how did you determine the location of the pipe?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Tue May 10, 2011 11:54 am

My priority for this mod would be in this order:

1) Price: dealer price for front mount is $316 + tax, GM parts direct: $187 + shipping, Rockauto: $55. Price of two hockey pucks and pipe: $5

2) Durability: the denser material of the pucks should last longer than a new OEM soft rubber mount. It's easy to see how the OEM rubber gets torn - there's not much material for support.

3) Performance: I wanted to stop the engine from shifting around in there, delivering more torque. The pucks are strong enough to handle this, while the OEM mounts really aren't. Locked in 1st gear between 20-35 MPH, the throttle response is just scary.

Hole for pipe is 5/8" drilled on center.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Tue May 10, 2011 12:29 pm

Nice! Looks like a simple solution! and no messing around with window weld either...

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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: Hockey Puck & Casting Front/Side Motor Mounts   Tue May 10, 2011 12:57 pm

Thanks. I did add window weld the rear mount - an OEM replacement I found for cheap at Rockauto. I think if I did the rear with pucks it would made some VERY harsh vibration in the cabin, but would have saved about $50.

The front mount was in bad shape, completely fractured one of the webs (see above). The pucks should keep this from happening in the future.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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