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 FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)

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dreww
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PostSubject: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:20 am

I put this on the Powertuner board but got no help.
There is a table modifier timing program available which I have used. But being familiar with it doesnt matter in relation to this question.

I put in a scan that really only included idling/cruising and the program only changes the timing of those setting. But it simply raises every cell used in the scan 2 degrees (by default).
When I do this, the cells in the higher mg/cyl settings, the timing numbers are lower. But the timing modifer still raises those cells timing by 2* and the powertuner highlights the cells since the changes exceed 10%. IS THIS OKAY?

I understand the damage of raising the MAF numbers more than a few %, but still unsure about timing.

Another thing, I have no EGR so my engine temps tend to stay cooler than normal. How does this effect settings??
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:38 am

I'm far from an expert as I haven't jumped in and done what I'll call the necessary reading yet. As we all know, being able to tune a car shows a relationship between effort put into learning and working with the car.

Depending if you are getting knock at the higher cylinder airmass would be the biggest determination for me if you should allow 2* to be added up there. Personally...I'd make small changes in only certain areas and come back for the top fo the rpm range.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:18 am

BillBoost37 wrote:

Depending if you are getting knock at the higher cylinder airmass would be the biggest determination for me if you should allow 2* to be added up there. Personally...I'd make small changes in only certain areas and come back for the top fo the rpm range.

well I haven't touched anything in the upper RPM range. Like I did with my fuel trims... first got idle/cruise then partial throttle then WOT tunings.

But as the cylinder mass increases in the lower RPM range (and all RPM ranges actually), the timing numbers drop considerably. 2* timing added on top aint nothing, but what about 2* added to single digit stock timing numbers?I just dont wanna drop into OD, have the RPMS fall/cylinder mass increase, and then the extra timing hurt something. Guess if anything, I would see knock and know to remove 1or 2* of timing huh?
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:13 am

Quote :
I understand the damage of raising the MAF numbers more than a few %, but still unsure about timing.

I don't understand. Please explain.

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:45 am

Before you start tuning your timing table, give this a try - they recommend downloading the .bin from an '05 GTP and taking it's GFS table, as it's a bit more agressive overall and a better starting place for your tune.

-Derek
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:56 am

AA wrote:
Quote :
I understand the damage of raising the MAF numbers more than a few %, but still unsure about timing.

I don't understand. Please explain.

MAF increases are done in percentages. Usually 1 or 2% at a time. Timing increases can only be done in 1/2* timing increaments (despite what the chart says....16.453 = 16.5* timing)

deekster_caddy wrote:
Before you start tuning your timing table, give this a try - they recommend downloading the .bin from an '05 GTP and taking it's GFS table, as it's a bit more agressive overall and a better starting place for your tune.

-Derek

Im kinda leery on this because everyone says "you shouldnt use another vehicles .bin because those settings aren't made for your car". I also know the 04+ vehicles were quite different from the 97-03's and mine is a 96'. Guess I could get that pin on the powertuner board huh? Do you know anyone who has done this with a riv?

anyone know what their crusing timing is? mine wont exceed 31* or so.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:55 am

Quote :
MAF increases are done in percentages. Usually 1 or 2% at a time. Timing increases can only be done in 1/2* timing increaments (despite what the chart says....16.453 = 16.5* timing)

Okay, 1-2% at a time.I thought you meant it was dangerous to raise the MAF values more than a few % period. As long as you watch your a/f, O2, and LTFT, you can increase them 10% over stock... in 1-2% increments, of course.

Quote :
Im kinda leery on this because everyone says "you shouldnt use another vehicles .bin because those settings aren't made for your car". I also know the 04+ vehicles were quite different from the 97-03's and mine is a 96'. Guess I could get that pin on the powertuner board huh? Do you know anyone who has done this with a riv?

You don't have to use the actual GTP bin, just export it's timing table and then import it into your timing table. You keep your bin, but use the GTP's values. I'm betting this is safer than trying to adjust them yourself. It would at least be interesting to compare the two tables to see the differences. There are lots of variables that make a '96 Riv different from an '04 GTP, but timing may not be one of them. You have to check before you can assume the tables are very different.

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'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
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EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:04 am

Aaron is correct. You can't use another cars complete bin, but you can use a particular table from that bin. If you compare the two timing tables in an excel graph, for instance, you'll find the '05 GTP GFS spark table is a smoother table, and a little more agressive than your Riv's GFS spark table. Just import the one table before you start tuning.

You should tune for fuel before timing, IMHO.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:32 am

Quote :
You should tune for fuel before timing, IMHO.

Agree. I've not played with timing at all. Still trying to get rid of that last bit of KR. Advancing the timing is the last thing on my list right now.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:21 pm

AA wrote:
Quote :
You should tune for fuel before timing, IMHO.

Agree. I've not played with timing at all. Still trying to get rid of that last bit of KR. Advancing the timing is the last thing on my list right now.

i am KR free except blip KR during shifts. I have worked on tuning fuel for what seems forever now.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:58 pm

Okay, then you are ready to start playing with timing. Start with the '05 GTP GFS table though... and go from there.

I'm really not comfortable with the way the timing table is set up. The last advanced system I worked on, the timing table was two-dimensional, MAP vs RPM, it made a lot of sense and was easy to follow. This one I'm not so sure about.

The tuning thingy program seems to do a good job overall, but I still don't really know what it's changing.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:28 pm

I am currently running the 05 GTP timing tables. Be careful beacause your max timing at WOT will go from 15* to 21* . I had to make some adjustments. I am currently running 19* with KR only at shifts with my 3.4 pulley.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:53 pm

hmm, mine didn't go that high. I only hit 14-15 at WOT.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:14 pm

Hmm! I have to admitt adding those tables really did bring a smile to my face.

I noticed the engine sound a little diffrent.
Idle spark advanced went up +10*
noticed a little more pep leaving the light.

Took me a while to fine tune to a point where I was comfortable about it but I think it is worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:20 am

can you send me that 05 GTP file for the timing table?
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:31 am

dreww wrote:
BillBoost37 wrote:

Depending if you are getting knock at the higher cylinder airmass would be the biggest determination for me if you should allow 2* to be added up there. Personally...I'd make small changes in only certain areas and come back for the top fo the rpm range.

. Guess if anything, I would see knock and know to remove 1or 2* of timing huh?

I did see some KR as soon as I dropped into TCC lockup. up to 3* with little throttle. I cannot adjust the PE enable to unlock the TCC with less throttle % because my 96 doesnt have that option. I have to "lift the foot" then hit the petal again - the old school riv way.

now, I dont know if this is normal because I never monitored KR on the highway or crusing (only WOT runs) - also I was towing. I do believe that extra 2* timing in the higher cylinder airmass w/ lower RPMS cells cause it though. Im gonna test it without the extra 2K lb. load behind me and go from there.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:34 am

Tell me you didn't just say you were adding timing while adding an extra 2K lbs to your car's weight.

Step 1, smack self in forehead
Step 2, scan without boat anchor attached to boat.

It'll make a huge difference. Heck.. If there are 2-3 guys in my car versus only me, I notice differences in the car.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:42 am

Wow, towing 2k lbs... you might as well be filling up with 87 octane. Seriously, the effect of that kind of load is very similar. Rated tow capacity is 1000 lb if I remember correct.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:23 pm

That's how I used to tune the timing in my 455 powered suburban... which had no computer. I would hook up my 4000 lb camper trailer, go out on the highway and do pulls and rotate the distributor until I couldn't hear any detonation. Drop the camper, tune complete wink
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:47 am

BillBoost37 wrote:
Tell me you didn't just say you were adding timing while adding an extra 2K lbs to your car's weight.

Step 1, smack self in forehead
Step 2, scan without boat anchor attached to boat.

It'll make a huge difference. Heck.. If there are 2-3 guys in my car versus only me, I notice differences in the car.

well, I could have kept it in 3rd and just let the motor RPMS stay higher - that would have prevented the KR. But then my tranny starts to cook.

lesser of two evils? Guess I need a "towing" tune

AA wrote:
Wow, towing 2k lbs... you might as well be filling up with 87 octane. Seriously, the effect of that kind of load is very similar. Rated tow capacity is 1000 lb if I remember correct.

yea, ive been testing that claim for a while lol
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:37 am

I missed the part about you asking for somebody to send you the timing tables. If nobody's sent them to you yet shoot me a PM. The '05 GTP bin is available for download on DHP's forums but I have it handy and can email it to you.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:28 am

deekster_caddy wrote:
I missed the part about you asking for somebody to send you the timing tables. If nobody's sent them to you yet shoot me a PM. The '05 GTP bin is available for download on DHP's forums but I have it handy and can email it to you.

PM sent
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:58 am

nvmnd...I finally found it on the DHP site.

thx anyways deekster
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:02 am

oh well. already in the mail wink
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Spark Advance (Timing, Retard)   Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:51 am

Thanks, Deek.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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