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TType_Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:34 am

nitrous is sooo un predictable...one little hiccup of the engine an it could cost you..ive seen intake manifolds scatter,intercooler tanks blow up on turbo cars...expect plug changes more often... timing changes will affect how efficient it is....not worth it IMO
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:12 am

Nitrous is just a cheap forced induction power adder. You already have a power adder on the car. You can buy an intercooler and increase boost/fueling, or you can use N2O. The first option allows you performance at all times, for a bigger price; the second allows the same for a few seconds at much less cost.

The choice of using nitrous has little to do with taking risk, imo. If you scan and do your research, it's safe. I think it's more of a style decision. How do you want to be thought of? One the bottle, or all motor?

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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:42 am

the quote that comes to mind is " bottles are for babies , real men get blown."
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:59 am

AA wrote:
quote: "the MAF should be able to recalculate and provide the right amount of fuel."

If this were the case, the MAF could likewise calculate the extra air pushed in by a 2.8" pulley, correct?

I realize I'm pulling this part of the discussion right out of the grave but it seems to me that the MAF sensor is designed and tuned to meter atmospheric air, not atmospheric air + concentrated nitrous oxide. I don't think that the MAF could possibly begin to compensate for any amount of N2O. It doesn't recognize what's coming in by any means, only how much.

3800perf has a plate that fits between the blower and the TB so apparently they don't feel that metering the nitrous charge is necessary or accurate enough to bother. At WOT, the volume ratio of nitrous (w/ <50 shot) to intake air is still pretty small.

Another little thing - I doubt that jet position will have any effect on atomization at all considering it's going to be whipped through the blower and compressed anyway.

Using that adapter plate gives you the ability to inject the same nitrous charge regardless of throttle position so that could be good or bad.
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97rivman
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:16 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
Alex, didnt the monte blow up after like only 5k miles??

i think you would be fine with a 25-50 wet shot, if used right, but you need a tuner to at least scan and maybe make adjustments as needed.

what mods do you currently have?

no, it never blew up, and I beat the god damn dog piss out of that car...the only real damage (small chips in the pistons) came from leaning out the fuel and messing with the spark advance.

and whatever anyone says about using nitrous makes you a wuss or a cheater..... can kiss my ass cuz i was spanking cars that i should have never beat and i didnt even have a s/c.

if money is on the line, better believe i'll have the bottle ready.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:43 am

so whats the consensus on SC'd nitrous applications?

WET or DRY?

Im seriously considering this mod in the future since I wont ever be using an intercooler.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:51 am

dreww wrote:
so whats the consensus on SC'd nitrous applications?

WET or DRY?

Im seriously considering this mod in the future since I wont ever be using an intercooler.

I thought wet was always better. Plus wet is like $50 over the base $450 for dry (this is the zzp ZEX kit im talking about) so I think it would be foolish not to get wet.
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Turbocharged400sbc
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:41 am

dreww wrote:
so whats the consensus on SC'd nitrous applications?

WET or DRY?

Im seriously considering this mod in the future since I wont ever be using an intercooler.

wet
direct port foggers installed in the cylinder head port floor

nitrous is THE best chemical intercooler out there, i have no doubt that at the track the whippledRiv would make more power without the stg2 IC on the bottle with the same jets, just from the lack of airflow restriction.
with direct port foggers helping to cool the air/fuel mix, i wouldnt hessitate to drop from the planned 3.0 pulley to a 2.75

but since the riv is gonna be driven almost daily its keeping the IC since its gets to be pretty cost prohibitive to spray all the time wink
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:17 am

This discussion is interesting. Never thought I'd say this, but using N2O with the intention of replacing an IC seems more noble than using it to gain super amounts of power. What I mean is, a very small shot (25hp?) could silence KR, enabling one to drop a SC pulley size safely. And in theory, a smaller shot with a large bottle would last a lot longer between refills, correct? I'd feel much better about using N2O if it were available for a few minutes instead of seconds.

Codith. Perhaps you're right about nitrous being invisible to MAF. If that's the case, how does the PCM know how much fuel to add?

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:42 am

AA wrote:
how does the PCM know how much fuel to add?

I don't know but this is probably the main reason I'd get wet or nothing. Fogger is far beyond my abilities or $ range.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:15 pm

N2O is not invisible to the MAF, but the MAF can only compensate for a limited amount. No firsthand experience on these, but my understanding is you can safely add a 50 shot pre-MAF and the PCM would handle it all for you.
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PostSubject: Nos   Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:22 am

Has anybody put a nos system in there Riviera? I was racing my friend with his crown vic (police Intercepter) and he just zooms past me doing about 140 or something like that and he used nos (so he says) . So to keep up I was thinking about putting a nos system in my Rivieria. Any feedback would help lol
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IBx1
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:27 am

Palermocorey90 and 97rivman are the only two I can think of on this board, but they have nitrous systems. Corey's Riv is under construction, however, and I'm not sure if 97rivman is good to drive yet. Ask them.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:29 am

The result are good with a nos system right?
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96RivSCMI
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:31 am

Try looking through thIS post...

Bad Mother *%$@$%
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:13 pm

Nitrous has its good qualities , however...


Most on this forum would agree that since our motors already have a power adder ( supercharger) that you're better off building it out rather than having to refill the bottle. Honestly our cars are so cheap and responsive to mods that you're better off just doing regular mods.

Nitrous can be helpful if you want to reach a certain power level on top of your build , but an extra 50HP isn't that hard to get out of these motors , and you'd have that power on tap all the time , and if done right safely.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:15 pm

Theres been alot of speculation and rumors as to the safety and effectivness of Nitrous on our motors. I know on www.3800pro.com, there are a few people who are running nitrous with no problems yet, and if installed correctly should provide you with lots of fun.
I haven't used nitrous on my Riv yet, since i haven't had a license and I already have ~400HP. But there are 2 options you have.

Wet shot- about $600 for a universal "NOS" kit. It sprays a combination of fuel and nitrous, but there are many people with the opinion that the fuel eats away at the coating on the rotors of the supercharger. It is much better suited for N/A applications

Dry shot- Basically acts as an intercooler, and to increase HP. A 50 shot on top of the supercharger should be fine, and will alleviate alot of "Heat sink" on the supercharger. This is what I am going to use once i get a bigger solenoid and a straight through fogger nozzle.

What year Riv do you have?

and as tony mentioned, it is alot easier oto just build the motor, and refilling nitrous bottles can get expensive quick. I was spending $80 a pop to fill 2 bottles just so I could be ready to kill.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:41 pm

If you've changed nothing else, you'll just hit the limiter faster.

Make a signature block, nobody wants to guess what model you have or what modifications and tuning you've done.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:51 pm

97rivman wrote:
Wet shot- about $600 for a universal "NOS" kit. It sprays a combination of fuel and nitrous, but there are many people with the opinion that the fuel eats away at the coating on the rotors of the supercharger. It is much better suited for N/A applications

Dry shot- Basically acts as an intercooler, and to increase HP. A 50 shot on top of the supercharger should be fine, and will alleviate alot of "Heat sink" on the supercharger.

Thanks for that post. I've always kind of wondered why anyone would use a dry shot when they can spend a couple extra for a wet shot. I'm thinking I probably will get nitrous before next spring and i just assumed get zzp's ZEX wet kit for $500.

I don't know why anyone would say not to get nitrous just because the car already has a power adder. The nitrous is just as, and probably more, effective on a boosted car. Also remember that nitrous has zero effect on fuel economy, emissions, or reliability while not in use which would be most of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:51 pm

I do NOT like the zex kit. I've seen it and what it can do. Basically it interrupts the vacuum line to the FP regulator, and boosts the fuel pressure when the N2O is on. It is NOT the right way to go about it. I don't see an easier way to do it on our cars, which is why I haven't tried it yet myself.

I hear that up to a 50 HP dry shot before the MAF will be self-compensated by lower IAT and the MAF HZ should be higher, resulting in more fuel. I haven't tried this so don't try it on my account.

The only 'right' way to do it is to have N2O and fuel nozzles in the LIM, which will not be easy to install.

I do have a bit of experience in this area, but not on anything modern. I've never damaged an engine from it's use, and I've never (and will never) use NOS products to get it done.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:22 pm

I have been considering a 50-75 shot for quite some time and have done some research on this. I understand the dry shot is very difficult to tune consistantly for. I will be going with a zex wet shot, after the TB (I have a TB adapter plate wich will house the nozzle), I will need some supporting mods mentioned below.

I'm not as worried with the Gen V rotors as they have a different coating which is more resiliant. Also, I don't plan on spraying all the time.

You will need a window switch so you do not spray through shifts or you will be needing a trans very soon. Also you need a fuel pressure safelty switch which will cut spray in case you have a drop in fuel pressure. I will also be using a progressive controller that gives me the ability to add spray depending on RPM rather than WOT. I figure I will have it turning on in 2nd and 3rd gear starting at 3500 thru 5500rpm. There is no need for first gear spray as I have traction problems already until 2nd. I will also have a bottle warmer and purge.

I am figuring it's goign to cost me 1k for a good, safe setup capable of 50-75hp.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:38 pm

Eric, make sure you are monitoring with a wideband O2 sensor so you really know what's going on. Raising the FP with the ZEX means your O2s will not be what you had previously tuned for, not even close. Plus the increased fuel isn't coming from the same place as the NOS so there will be some timing delay where it will be a little rich to start and a little lean to stop...

Also, see what AA did with his FP gauge. I'd highly recommend comparing WOT FP with and without the ZEX active before spraying any juice. Make sure the thing is really increasing your FP significantly. Have a separate WOT tune for the bottle.

Our top quality stuff was made by Top Gun Nitrous systems. I can't find them anymore, but I'd still use NitrousWorks before any NOS parts.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:01 pm

Got the wideband scanner covered already.

I mentioned that FA guage setup to AA on his thread... that's what I did when I had my fp issues before most of my upgrades I just zipties the guage to my wipers instead.

Quote :
Plus the increased fuel isn't coming from the same place as the NOS so there will be some timing delay where it will be a little rich to start and a little lean to stop...

That's why I want to have the progressive controller... to minimize the timing delay as much as possible.

Before I do any nitrous setup I will get the aeroforce guage first. Nitrous is not forgiving and could lead to expensive repairs if not properly tuned or monitored.
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:30 am

Sounds like you're ready! smile smile 3gears
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PostSubject: Re: NOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS   Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:35 pm

deekster_caddy wrote:


The only 'right' way to do it is to have N2O and fuel nozzles in the LIM, which will not be easy to install.

.

totally agree with this. It actually isnt that hard...bill put a intake temp gauge into his LIM when he had it off the car, (doing it during a LIM gasket replacement would be easy) but you might need a machine shop to cut the hole out right, the LIM is aluminum and screwups are unforgiving.
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