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 FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?

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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:57 pm

As you can see your question was bumped to the Water/Alcohol Thread.
I was looking at water meth injection for quite a while and really liked the newer set-up from Snow Performance.
The reason I liked that particular one was they had a module / controller that tied into the GM MAF frequency for more accurate injection as opposed to just shooting fluid in a somewhat uncontrolled manner.
All they recommend injecting is either their product, for an extended warranty, or windshield washer fluid. Only use the fluid recommended to -20*F (blue stuff) as that has the proper ratio of water and methanol.
I was going to get a larger tank and mount it in the trunk. With the correct calibrations (Hz) and spray metered water/meth at all times, they say you can get quite a long way on a gallon with daily driving and spirited driving.
I forget all the specifics now but you wouldn't have to be filling it every hour but instead a tank will last weeks.
Again that's using the MAF Hz controlled system.
This allows you to tune the A/F with a constant yet variable amount of water/meth or windshield washer fluid. I like the concept and I know it works, it's just that everyone keeps saying it will peel off the coating on the rotors and that will obviously cause a decrease in supercharger efficiency to the point of the S/C being worthless with out the coating. You won't have the tight clearances necessary for compression or movement of air with the coating eroded.
On the other hand, I've heard that the GEN V's coating can withstand the windshield washer fluid, but I've not seen the pic's of a GEN V after X number of miles while ingesting Water/Meth


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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:01 pm

I saw that as well. I don't think the Devils Own kit offers that ability.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:22 pm

Does anyone have any data on the wether the Water/Meth or Windshield Washer fluid will errode the coating on the GEN V rotors.
I haven't seen pictures either way.
I think a while ago I saw a pic of a Gen 3 torn down after using windshield washer fluid and all I could see was that rotor's and case internals were stained a color blue.
But nothing that indicated it had ruined the seal of the rotor's by removing the coating.
I'm sure there are plenty of people that have tried it, and are using it, but I've not personally read any of the positive or negative results from it being used in a SC situation, where it is injected before the throttle plate.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:26 pm

n/m It was in ref to aftermarket, not OEM superchargers.

Didn't some of the M90's come with uncoated rotors? I know Ford had some that were uncoated, but did GM?


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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:30 pm

n/m = ....?????
This has been part of the problem in deciding whether to try water/meth or not.
Can't seem to get into an intelligent conversation with anyone other than the vendors who want to sell their goods.


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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:20 pm

Rickw wrote:
n/m = ....?????

n/m = Nevermind
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:01 pm

This thread is really old, an is still having post wow! its been awhile since ive been on this site, i forgot how much i love this place... if its to anyones concern, most of my old post may have not been logicall in any shape or form... lol... just started to learn about cars when i joined.. so to my intail statement 30-60hp off an methanol kit? not gonna happen..this alows you to reduce knock retard, thus being able to drop pulleysizes, therefor making more power but will turn the coating of your rotors a lil green ..lol..


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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:07 pm

Eric,
The only thing I really understood about your post above was your statement that Water/Meth will turn your rotors Green.
Do you have any experience with using one of the current Water/Meth kits available and if so, could you be more specific about your experience with it.
I am still interested in trying this but would like feedback from someone that has tried it.
Please try to write in sentences and NOT write on without punctuation.
I can not understand you.
Thanks,
Rick
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:33 pm

No experience with alky.... ive seen many post on the regal board and clubgp with pics of rotors after the methanol use, it tends to eat the rotors coating, but i think it only turns green because of the window wiper fluid being blue... If you like i can try to find a thread on this subject?
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:04 pm

ericde wrote:
No experience with alky.... ive seen many post on the regal board and clubgp with pics of rotors after the methanol use, it tends to eat the rotors coating, but i think it only turns green because of the window wiper fluid being blue... If you like i can try to find a thread on this subject?
If you could, I would appreciate it. Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:52 pm

The fluid sprayed won't affect if the coating comes off, chemically the coating would hold up if you where spraying battery acid(Teflon is unaffected by undiluted sulfuric acid, or straight methanol).

The coating would be taken of by fluid hitting it under pressure, even if its just water. Some of the cheaper W/I kits used nozzles that don't turn the water into a mist, the droplets then pound on the rotors chipping the coating (on turbo cars it brakes tiny bits of metal off so the wheel looks like mice gnawed on it). If a high quality noozle is used the water/alcohol looks like fog, so it shouldn't damage the coating. Aquamist/erl, snow performance, devil's own, and alcohol injection systems all use the better types of nozzle.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:55 pm

Well, I have an extra blower on the shelf, so maybe I'll try it sometime. Would be good to know if these "high quality" nozzles really make a difference.

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:29 pm

I found some sites this morning saying the rotors are epoxy coated, not Teflon coated.
If they are epoxy they may not be chemically unaffected by methanol(or gas, seafoam, throttle cleaner) like I thought (some epoxy is resistant, some isn't). The Devil's own site says the epoxy is unaffected on the 97+ gtp, but they are also tiring to sell there kit. They said the coating on the series I m62 is not resistant.

The better noozle would still help with cooling and even distribution. All the major brands use good nozzles anyway, just the homemade ones and small sites use the cheap ones.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:09 am

About meth injection, I've read pretty much the same thing. Some say it will peel the rotor coating, others say it will be fine. From what I can tell the ones that had peeling coatings were blowers from <=97 where Eaton hadn't quite gotten the best adhesion between rotor coating and rotor. Although, as you say, there isn't much hard data or pics for either scenario. If I were to do meth injection, I think I would be leaning to a system that sprays in the LIM. Few people have done it that way, but the theory is that the spray pattern is more even and you get better dispersion to all the intake runners than from pre supercharger. Which does make sense; any system that is pre SC will blast the moist air into the end of your LIM due to the triangle outlet.

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:41 am

Where in the LIM would you suggest putting the spray nozzle so that it could provide all cylinders with the water injection.?
Or, in your opinion, would it be necessary to have six custom sized injectors mounted in each intake runner.?
I know that the 6 injector's would be ideal yet that is just not doable.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:57 am

6 injectors in the manifold, I think it has been done. At least, I've seen it done with N2O injection on a V8.

Maybe someone could modify an IC core to introduce mist into the LIM after compression. The IC would help keep the mist nice and cool, or the water/alcohol might aid the IC by lowering it's core temp.

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:04 pm


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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:24 pm

AA wrote:
6 injectors in the manifold, I think it has been done. At least, I've seen it done with N2O injection on a V8.

Maybe someone could modify an IC core to introduce mist into the LIM after compression. The IC would help keep the mist nice and cool, or the water/alcohol might aid the IC by lowering it's core temp.
I'm researching and considering the water/meth injection so i do not to have to install an inter-cooler.
In the beginning of this quest for knowledge I thought that installing a water/meth system would ultimately be less expensive and easier to install than installing an intercooler. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not done with the research either.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:38 pm

for around 400 bucks you could get the raw materials for a 6 point injection kit from devilsown. That would be nozzles, pump, controller with built in MAP. Would need some tube and fittings for install. They do have a 3800 kit, but its single nozzle and pre-blower.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/

For my upside-down m90 blower project I'm actually leaning in this direction for effectiveness and cost. A custom water-to-air would be easily double the price, air-to-air presents problems for me to have equal distribution back to the runners upon return from the IC core. But with the 6 runners just curving the outside of the blower, it would be easy for me to tap into each, for meth or nitrious.

For the series 2, you might be able to tap into each runner with .75 gph nozzles, or go the route of two spraying across the LIM plenum.

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:15 pm

AA wrote:
6 injectors in the manifold, I think it has been done. At least, I've seen it done with N2O injection on a V8.

Maybe someone could modify an IC core to introduce mist into the LIM after compression. The IC would help keep the mist nice and cool, or the water/alcohol might aid the IC by lowering it's core temp.

AA, I wasn't able to log on to this site.
Have you personally been doing any research or read of someone that has been successful in injecting water/meth into the LIM at 6 locations for an even distribution of a cocktail into the LIM that is even and and not detrimental to the operation of the intake system.?

I have not done any recent research and have sold my Gen V and L32 Lim. For a while i was under the impression that that the GenV' coating was impervious to the windshield washer fluid, but have seen otherwise.

I am still interested in injecting in the LIM, at 6 or less locations, if someone has provides the bench testing to provide positive results, along with a certain system.(Snows,etc.)
Does anybody have any feedback yet on this issue.

If not, Then I will have to get a stock LIM and try to get some flow bench time and see what windshield washer fluid will do, regarding flow through numerous injectors into the combustion chambers and totally remove the Supercharger from the equation.
Just provide a certain amount of pressure to the LIM, with it capped off on the intake side and see what the flow pattern is like through the innards and measure with some probes the pressure at each intake port.

Do you think I'm taking the correct approach.?
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:29 pm

My new M62 had the teflon stripped during the reman process. I can compensate by dropping another pulley size, and since the is no coating I can run meth without much trouble.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:39 pm

Quote :
Have you personally been doing any research or read of someone that has been successful in injecting water/meth into the LIM at 6 locations for an even distribution of a cocktail into the LIM that is even and and not detrimental to the operation of the intake system.?
No... I've only seen it done with N2O on a V-8, and suggested it would be interesting to see someone try the same idea with water/meth injection on our engine. A challenge I'm not quite ready to take on, but maybe someone else could do it?

I have seen pictures of the Teflon coating stripped away as a result of water injection in the intake. I don't think the Gen V's are immune to the effects, but I've never tried it. As Klix says, once the coating is gone, the rotors become less efficient at pumping air, so you could then drop pulley size and not worry about it.

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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:53 pm

AA wrote:
Quote :
Have you personally been doing any research or read of someone that has been successful in injecting water/meth into the LIM at 6 locations for an even distribution of a cocktail into the LIM that is even and and not detrimental to the operation of the intake system.?
No... I've only seen it done with N2O on a V-8, and suggested it would be interesting to see someone try the same idea with water/meth injection on our engine. A challenge I'm not quite ready to take on, but maybe someone else could do it?

I have seen pictures of the Teflon coating stripped away as a result of water injection in the intake. I don't think the Gen V's are immune to the effects, but I've never tried it. As Klix says, once the coating is gone, the rotors become less efficient at pumping air, so you could then drop pulley size and not worry about it.
But with my Gen V, I thought it would be a big negative.
Removing the coating by using Windshield Washer fluid and then having to reduce pulley size more to make up for the abiadic loss. (I know I spelled this wrong) But I'm not right in the head as of now. I'll hopefully be back soon with a clearer head and i may take an L67 LIM to the shop in some time in the future, make the fixture and nozzles, and see how i can dispurse the fluid below the SC.
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:26 pm

Karma wrote:
but the theory is that the spray pattern is more even and you get better dispersion to all the intake runners than from pre supercharger. Which does make sense; any system that is pre SC will blast the moist air into the end of your LIM due to the triangle outlet.
I have to agree with the post-sc injection.
Since this statement was written, have you seen any set-ups with proof of research. Along with pictures of where to install the nozzles in the LIM.
I am still willing to try this, and would like to accomplish a reasonably sound set-up while i am replacing my LIM gaskets. Nozzle sizes and locations would obviously be a big plus, if not, the total solution.
I may just have to try it and post results.
Was hoping someone had already done this.
Rick


Last edited by Rickw on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: FAQ: Water / Alcohol / Methanol Injection?   Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:45 pm

I just remembered, I have ewolfe's old LIM sitting here in the garage... hmmm.

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'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


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