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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:30 pm

c0reyl wrote:
How did you get the seats to fold down? is there a write up?

The seats don't fold down unfortunately. After you pop the bottom cushion out, you need to unscrew the two large torx bolts at the bottom holding down the seatbelt stuff and then you can lift the rear cushion straight up and away.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:33 pm

turtleman wrote:
c0reyl wrote:
How did you get the seats to fold down? is there a write up?

The seats don't fold down unfortunately. After you pop the bottom cushion out, you need to unscrew the two large torx bolts at the bottom holding down the seatbelt stuff and then you can lift the rear cushion straight up and away.

I know they don't stock, but:

Jake95Riv wrote:
Hi i goy my 95 riv modded so that the seats in the back can fold down while i bump. i got 2x12" rockfords p2s and 2x480watt alphsioc amps with a pioneer head unit. It sounds much better now that the seats folded down but it also sounded nice 2 when the seats couldent fold down.

I was wondering how he modded the car to get them to fold down :O

also, how much room from trunk to car cabin do you get with your mods? I just cut a hole behind my back arm rest I can hide when I want -_-
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:32 pm

I'm planning a sound system "upgrade" for my Riviera, but I don't know all that much about the best way to set it up, as in what components would be best for me. I'm looking for good sound quality, not loudness. I don't listen to rap, but I love me a good subwoofer, nothing crazy though. I would be happy with a mono amp and single sub. But what about the front 5.25 speakers, which ones are recommended, and do you normally use another amp for those as well or no? Also planning to use an aftermarket head unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:52 pm

Mattwa wrote:
I'm planning a sound system "upgrade" for my Riviera, but I don't know all that much about the best way to set it up, as in what components would be best for me. I'm looking for good sound quality, not loudness. I don't listen to rap, but I love me a good subwoofer, nothing crazy though. I would be happy with a mono amp and single sub. But what about the front 5.25 speakers, which ones are recommended, and do you normally use another amp for those as well or no? Also planning to use an aftermarket head unit.

Any head unit is going to have pretty crappy amplification, they might say 50 watts, but its usually closer to 15 watts RMS. it's better to have 1.5 times the RMS of the driver in the amp and adjust gain so you're not clipping than underpowering the speakers. A head unit will blow speakers much easier than a decent amp. Look for any decent 4 channel amp with around 100x4 RMS for component speakers, and a good indicator of it being a decent amp is having under 1% THD (total harmonic distortion) in the specs. While THD doesn't tell you how good any amp is, it's a pretty good indicator that you will have clear sound.

Go by RMS, not peak power, stay away from brands like Pyle , Dual, and Pyrimid IMO. As for 5.25 inch speakers, for cheap?

http://www.ngamotorsports.com/polk_audio_5-14_inch_2-way_marine_certified_speakers_pair

For $50, you can not beat them. They're $60 on amazon if you don't trust that website. I got mine on creigslist for $40.

but, they have swivel mount silk dome tweeters and 93db efficiency, which is better than most 6.5 component speakers have for efficiency, meaning they are actually more efficient, and will sound louder on lower amplification than bigger drivers, and the silk domes are super clear, for drivers that cheap. I promise, they will not disappoint for the price.

the 6x9's in the back,

http://www.amazon.com/PIONEER-TS-D6902R-360W-SPEAKERS-PAIR/dp/B00126KFVU/ref=sr_1_223?s=car&ie=UTF8&qid=1342493828&sr=1-223&keywords=6x9+speaker


Great deal, those also have silk domes, and they have fibre bassalt cones, which is pretty much equal to kevlar in lightweight and strength.


http://www.amazon.com/Quart-Onx4-80-Channel-Class-Amplifier/dp/B0054IETBY/ref=sr_1_33?s=car&ie=UTF8&qid=1342494148&sr=1-33

Can't go wrong with that as a 4 channel amp.

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TS-W309S4-Champion-Single-Watts/dp/B004HW6FAQ/ref=sr_1_82?s=car&ie=UTF8&qid=1342494435&sr=1-82



This is a great 400 watt RMS 12" sub driver for $50, dual sub setup on a 2 ohm load wired in a series. Why do I say this is a good driver? Well, it's cheap, has a nice cone and surround, but..it has 94db efficiency, which is outstanding for a 12 inch sub driver, meaning it will be MUCH louder than the typical 86db 12 inch sub at the same power, and sound cleaner most likely by pumping more sound with less excursion by being more efficient.


http://www.amazon.com/MBQUART-FX1-1000-Formula-Mono-Amplifier/dp/B008DSBL36/ref=sr_1_101?s=car&ie=UTF8&qid=1342495007&sr=1-101


MB Quart doesn't screw around, with quality. Their specs are real, trust me on that, so given that amp..

http://www.amazon.com/PIONEER-TS-W309D4-SUBWOOFER-Voice-Coils/dp/B004UCS8LC/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1342495040&sr=1-7&keywords=Pioneer+TS-W309S4

Grab two of those drivers and since they are dual voice coil, just wire all the coils in a series up to a 1 ohm load on that amp, and it can push 800 watts RMS at a 1 ohm load no problem into both woofers, and you will probably have enough bass to start making your hood flex from the bass, with 800 watts RMS into two 12" 94db efficient drivers? yeah.


Box options?

http://www.amazon.com/Enclosure-Series-12-Inch-Sealed-Speaker/dp/B001M5IRNY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_10

super cheap, perfect 1.25 cu ft (what Pioneer recommends for those drivers)




head unit, just get whatever head unit meets your needs, and I do recommend Pioneer head units, they make decent decks for the price, and have decent options.up to you, and walmart has decent entry level options, but that's all up to you, in fact it's all up to you. I just provided some decent quality links for not the price of an arm and a leg.

Also with all that power, you might want a 2 Farad cap wired to your amps in your trunk for peak power, and possibly an alternator upgrade if your lights still dim on peak power hits after a cap upgrade.


Also, I'm not a fanboy of brands or anything, but MB quart does make decent quality amps, and most amps in that price range will be crap compared to the ones I linked. High end audio gets expensive. As for the pioneer 6x9's, there are better, more efficient 6x9 drivers, but those are the best for that price. The pioneer sub driver was a lucky deal as well. There are much better products, but all of those I linked happened to be super cheap deals for not crap products. depends on your price range man..but I can tell you that audio setup would be clear, loud, and that bass would probably rattle the hell out of your car and make your roof flex from 94db 12" drivers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_s7ryOoE1A

There's a somewhat decent youtube vid I found of a dual setup using those subs, going off of visual excursion I mean. You can't judge sound quality off of a crappy camera, but you can see they are pretty clean by looking at the excursion IMO, especially for a $50 driver.

Hope I helped :3
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:10 am

Good advice from Corey. I would add that for sound quality on a budget, you can retain the stock head unit. It's very similar to the unit used in the OE monsoon system for Pontiac, considered decent for its time. Use a hi/lo level converter and feed an outboard amp system, maybe squeeze a simple EQ in there for tuning. Results are good for listening while driving, just realize it ins't a competition set-up. We have a thread on getting the most from your stock head.

You can get away with less power and speaker diameter on the sub system. Nowadays there are many small sub drivers out there (8-10") that can really perform. Some amplified all-in-one subs are amazing for the size and price. Infinity's basslink is an example. 200-300 watts (RMS) is more than enough bass power for a good SQ system, meaning in-car sound, not pounding the neighborhood. More power is always welcome, as long as it's clean and honest RMS power.

IMO, the money you save on an aftermarket head and giant subwoofer can be better invested in a good front speaker pair for SQ. I'm a firm believer that maximizing your front stage quality = best overall sound quality. The front drivers impact the sound more than amps, even the source unit. Spending 1/3 of your budget on front speakers isn't a bad idea.

Investing in a good crossover with multiple slope options and variable cut-offs can improve your ability to custom tune the sound to match your car's interior. This can come in the form of an outboard unit, built into a power amp, or as part of an aftermarket head unit's programming (usually a higher priced option).

For amplifiers, I like buying used equipment on eBay. Some very good products were made 10-20 years ago, and should in theory last reliably for a long time. Prices are very reasonable for quality pieces. If you prefer to buy new, stick with a trusted brands (older a/d/s being my personal fav) and you'll get more power per dollar. Some amps used a non-regulated power supply, which gives extra watts with the car running, due to more volts from the alternator. For the sub, a class D amp can provide more power in a smaller package with less current demand.

If you plan things right, you can set up an awesome SQ system for under a grand. Good luck!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 281k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO 85k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 116k miles 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica 152k miles 0-60: yes
Because free


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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:17 am

AA wrote:
Good advice from Corey. I would add that for sound quality on a budget, you can retain the stock head unit. It's very similar to the unit used in the OE monsoon system for Pontiac, considered decent for its time. Use a hi/lo level converter and feed an outboard amp system, maybe squeeze a simple EQ in there for tuning. Results are good for listening while driving, just realize it ins't a competition set-up. We have a thread on getting the most from your stock head.

You can get away with less power and speaker diameter on the sub system. There are many small drivers out there (8-10") that really perform. Some amplified all-in-one subs are amazing for the size and price. Infinity's basslink is an example. 200-300 watts (RMS) is more than enough bass power for a good SQ system. More power is fine, but not absolutely needed.

IMO, the money you save on an aftermarket head and giant subwoofer can be better invested in a good front speaker pair for SQ. I'm a firm believer that maximizing your front stage quality = best overall sound quality. The front drivers impact the sound more than amps, even the source unit. Spending 1/3 of your budget on front speakers isn't a bad idea.

Investing in a good crossover with multiple slope options and variable cut-offs can improve your ability to custom tune the sound to match your car's interior. This can come in the form of an outboard unit, built into a power amp, or as part of an aftermarket head unit's programming (usually a higher priced option).

For amplifiers, I like buying used equipment on eBay. Some very good products were made 10-20 years ago, and should in theory last reliably for a long time. Prices are very reasonable for quality pieces. If you prefer to buy new, stick with a trusted brands (older a/d/s being my personal fav) and you'll get more power per dollar. Some amps used a non-regulated power supply, which gives extra watts with the car running, due to more volts from the alternator. For the sub, a class D amp can provide more power in a smaller package with less current demand.

Good luck!

Good point on the stock head unit, but many people like me, today like having features such has USB inputs, color changing options, bluetooth, and other nifty things.

Depends on his needs, and his budget, which he might want to tell us lol bonk
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:26 am

Right. I have a parametric EQ in the ashtray location with aux inputs, so I can plug in my iPhone, but if you want to plug in a flash drive or something like that, you'll need to swap out the head. If you just want good sound, and you still play CDs, the stock head can be a real money saver. I'm one of those who just uses the radio for general listening and occasionally rocking out. There's something so pure and simple about a sound system designed to only play music, and doing so very well!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 281k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO 85k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 116k miles 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica 152k miles 0-60: yes
Because free
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:16 am

AA wrote:
Right. I have a parametric EQ in the ashtray location with aux inputs, so I can plug in my iPhone, but if you want to plug in a flash drive or something like that, you'll need to swap out the head. If you just want good sound, and you still play CDs, the stock head can be a real money saver. I'm one of those who just uses the radio for general listening and occasionally rocking out. There's something so pure and simple about a sound system designed to only play music, and doing so very well!

CD's have great quality as described, but you do realize, without a line out kit for your iphone plugging into the bottom of the phone (not headphone jack), you are severely limiting yourself by the DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) and DSP (Digital Sound Processor) of the iPhone itself?

Also, mp3 bitrates really aren't the best sometimes, but even I have that issue with my flash drive setups, but I do like the fact that I don't have to worry about a crappy DAC from my droid limiting sound quality.

I like Lossless audio happy


http://www.amazon.com/Bluecell-Auxiliary-Charge-Connector-iPhone/dp/B0065BM3US/ref=pd_sim_e_2


This would help you a lot having 2 in 1 charging capability, while having line out still.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:27 pm

I guess it depends on what you mean by "severely limiting". If you assume the iPhone's DAC is inferior, that means the sound you hear through headphones is also inferior. Listening with my Sony MDR studio monitors, it doesn't sound bad, at least to my ears. The signal quality is good enough to be amplified for a car audio system. IMO, the converter in the iPhone is at least as good or better than the one in the stock head that converts the CD audio.

So as a test, plug in a set of studio reference headphones to your iPod/iPhone; if it sounds severely limited, you might benefit from a better outboard DAC. Me, I really can't tell, and I think most listeners fall into this category, esp when you consider that listening in a car over road noise, vibration and harshness is much more limiting than the DAC itself. Just my .02. Some people need that extra .00001% reduction in THD. I like to spend my money on speakers, because they produce real results I can easily hear in a car traveling 70 mph, even with windows down.

The MP3 vs. lossless argument has been debated, just as signal connections and speaker wire were scrutinized 15 years ago, the vinyl vs CD quality argument, tubes vs transistors, etc. I'm in the camp that believes numbers measured by computers don't always represent audible results. The other camp feels every little measurable thing matters. Where these two groups seem to butt heads is in listening tests - the numbers guys can't prove the specs are audible. There was a blog written by an audiophile a few years back, explaining why MP3s could never sound as good as lossless audio. A few years layer, the same guy eventually realized that the percievable difference was not only very small, it was in most cases impossible to decern at all. He then converted his audio tracks to MP3. Other research suggests most people, even musicians and experienced listeners can't tell - proven by double blind listening tests. This makes some people feel let down, I think, because everyone wants to believe there's a benefit from listening to the best possible recording. To me, if it sounds good, it IS good. The true judge of quality should be what your ears tell you, not a graph or a number.

On the other hand, some graphs and numbers are very informative! Speaker response curves and on vs. off axis response can give a good idea of what a speaker will sound like. Still, I like to listen before making the final call. It's fun to actually review a product and see if it aligns with the factory specs. Even better, make your own measurements to justify what you are hearing. Neat stuff.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 281k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO 85k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 116k miles 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica 152k miles 0-60: yes
Because free
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:01 pm

AA wrote:
I guess it depends on what you mean by "severely limiting". If you assume the iPhone's DAC is inferior, that means the sound you hear through headphones is also inferior. Listening with my Sony MDR studio monitors, it doesn't sound bad, at least to my ears. The signal quality is good enough to be amplified for a car audio system. IMO, the converter in the iPhone is at least as good or better than the one in the stock head that converts the CD audio.

So as a test, plug in a set of studio reference headphones to your iPod/iPhone; if it sounds severely limited, you might benefit from a better outboard DAC. Me, I really can't tell, and I think most listeners fall into this category, esp when you consider that listening in a car over road noise, vibration and harshness is much more limiting than the DAC itself. Just my .02. Some people need that extra .00001% reduction in THD. I like to spend my money on speakers, because they produce real results I can easily hear in a car traveling 70 mph, even with windows down.

The MP3 vs. lossless argument has been debated, just as signal connections and speaker wire were scrutinized 15 years ago, the vinyl vs CD quality argument, tubes vs transistors, etc. I'm in the camp that believes numbers measured by computers don't always represent audible results. The other camp feels every little measurable thing matters. Where these two groups seem to butt heads is in listening tests - the numbers guys can't prove the specs are audible. There was a blog written by an audiophile a few years back, explaining why MP3s could never sound as good as lossless audio. A few years layer, the same guy eventually realized that the percievable difference was not only very small, it was in most cases impossible to decern at all. He then converted his audio tracks to MP3. Other research suggests most people, even musicians and experienced listeners can't tell - proven by double blind listening tests. This makes some people feel let down, I think, because everyone wants to believe there's a benefit from listening to the best possible recording. To me, if it sounds good, it IS good. The true judge of quality should be what your ears tell you, not a graph or a number.

On the other hand, some graphs and numbers are very informative! Speaker response curves and on vs. off axis response can give a good idea of what a speaker will sound like. Still, I like to listen before making the final call. It's fun to actually review a product and see if it aligns with the factory specs. Even better, make your own measurements to justify what you are hearing. Neat stuff.

Notable headphone's Iv'e had in the past are BOSE in ear, as well as quiet comfort 3's (both were gifts, and BOSE is pretty much garbage for the price, just like beats), Sennheiser HD 595 which I had for a couple years in highschool, (everyone thought I looked stupid with them on lol, but they broke), Etymotic ERi6 in ear headphones (pretty damn good actually for the money) Vmoda Vibe duo in ear headphones (had awesome bass, that's about it) Sennheiser CX 6 I got at microcenter with employee discount for $50 (list was $300) (great fidelity in ear headphones for the money) and now I mostly use my Vmoda Crossfade LP:




I'll be honest, the audiophile community thinks these cans are garbage, but A: i got them for $130 when list price was $300, with an apple store gift card and price matching, and B: they've had well over 600 hours of burn in time using max treble and are no longer bass heavy, and have a wonderful soundstage and listening transparency for the price. They sound much better than any other headphone's Iv'e heard for some reason after the retarded burn in time period, which is really weird.


I have had the original iPhone, the iPhone 3GS, and two iPhone 4's (not 4S). I've heard all those headphones on pretty much the same DAC platform of the iPhone, and iv'e heard most of them amplified in my Auzentech X-Fi Home Theater HD sound card headphone amp which has 0.00003% THD and are rated for 600 ohm headphones, specsheet:

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/snas393b/snas393b.pdf






I mean, it's a somewhat decent headphone amp for comparison, but honestly, I mostly use my headphone amp integrated in my Yeti THX USB mic, which sounds pretty much as good tbh.


Anyway, the point is...to my ears, FLAC files on my computer, with my good headphone amp sound very much different than any ipod or iphone will. Not only that, but the iphone OPAMPS do not even have the power required to properly drive my Crossfade LP headphones the way they were meant to be heard, and the DSP on the iphone makes all the music unnessicarily bass heavy, which is bad, because the iPhone amplification doesn't have enough power to operate the headphone drivers, and will literally cause clipping on my Crossfade LP, whereas with my headphone amp on my pc, instead of slight gargling, it will literally vibrate my skull on the same EQ settings, and the headphones will almost start moving off my ears.

But, I keep an entirely flat EQ on these cans amped from my PC, and ironically, in a gaming pc which performs about as good as a $2500 Alienware, my most expensive part is the sound card happy





I just thought that last part was interesting :p
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:32 pm

Wow. Didn't expect that much of a response. Haha. Don't know really where to start. This is a long term project in a way, I do like the way the stock system sounds now, it just needs more of a kick from a sub. This is not something happening now, nor is it high on the "to-do" list...well the headunit kinda is, but I'll get to that. It's in the planning phase. Anything can change in the plan at anytime.

The very first thing I think I would want is a new Headunit. My factory unit sucks if there isn't anything good on the radio, which kinda sucks as well since I have a broken power antenna. The only plus is I can easily read the display (LOL) and the steering wheel buttons are nice. I don't have many CD's, and it tends to show E20 and throw out the CD anyway sometimes. Tape player is 100% broken, nothing but bits and pieces left inside that little door. I have all my music on my phone, but I can't use it in this car. And I'm not getting a FM modular. If I was to buy a headunit for a Riviera, I want a Double Din, Touchscreen, GPS unit, USB, maybe even bluetooth. All my music is in MP3 format, about 8GB worth ( I know, pretty weak right?)

I would like to add a decent mono amp and a 8"-10" sub, like I said I don't need to shake the house across the street with it. Front speakers are good enough for right now, but is on the list after the amp/sub.

Yea I could get used equipment from eBay, good suggestion.

And thanks for all the links Corey, I do appreciate it. As for budget...well that's up in the air. If I sell my other car, it would help for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:48 pm

No problem, just helping out lol.

a 10 inch sub would be easier to find in budget than an 8 inch. and you could easily get a decent cheap DVC (Dual voice coil) 400 watt or so 12" sub like the one I linked for $50, and then a 400 watt mono amp and wire it on a 2 ohm load as well.

It would probably be as loud as my dual 12 alpine subs and my 400 watt alpine monoblock amp, with higher efficiency and the same wattage.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:19 pm

8 or 10, doesn't really matter to me, same with the watts, I'm not really into sound systems as much, I am in a way, like I'm very picky about sound quality but It doesn't really matter what brand it is or anything. I'm more of a mechanical guy, that stuff is my area. I'm so tempted to slap my Turbo I have on the Riviera with an N/A intake...but there goes my 4t65e-hd...

Anyway, A pioneer headunit like I have seen on this forum is very similar to what I'd like to do. But getting the radio out doesn't look like a fun task...
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:10 pm

Mattwa wrote:
8 or 10, doesn't really matter to me, same with the watts, I'm not really into sound systems as much, I am in a way, like I'm very picky about sound quality but It doesn't really matter what brand it is or anything. I'm more of a mechanical guy, that stuff is my area. I'm so tempted to slap my Turbo I have on the Riviera with an N/A intake...but there goes my 4t65e-hd...

Anyway, A pioneer headunit like I have seen on this forum is very similar to what I'd like to do. But getting the radio out doesn't look like a fun task...

You have to take the dashboard out, and I think there's a guide on that somewhere, but I'm pretty sure you can figure it out easily enough, being a mechanical guy. There are pretty much around 8 torx hex hewad bolts screwing the dash in on top of the radio, there's a plastic lip you have to get out to have access to the bolts if I remember right, bolts are in between on top above the dash at the seem.

Slapping a turbo with an NA intake (meaning without an intercooler)? it seems you alrady have an M90 gen III on your 3800? Lowering pulley sizes to lower than a 3.5 would already present you with much KR (Engine knock problems), even on lower 8.5:1 compression pistons, even forged 8:1 or lower pistons would risk detonation on the 3800 without an intercooler on a turbo at even under 15 PSI. A turbo uses exhaust gasses to spool the turbine at well over 15,000 RPM, which has turbo lag more often than not, needing the time of the exhaust gasses to spool it. Your gen III M90 will max out your 3800 series II until you have an intercooler, porting work done on the supercharger itself to increase efficiency and lower intake temps (doesn't matter as much with an intercooler), porting done on the heads, PLIM (Ported lower intake manifold), headers and downpipe with a resonator delete and either high flow cat or cat delete to the catback, ported throttlebody or an LS4/Northstar throttlebody upgrade, 180* or better Thermostat, probably colder sparkplugs like NGK, a tune, and either 1.9:1 rockers or a cam.

Oh, I think you could make more than 400 wheel horses on a 3800 without all those mods, but KR would happen, and it wouldn't last nearly as long as an OEM L67. That would pretty much be a general list of things needed to do to best eliminate KR, which comes down to volumetric efficiency with the root problems of heat, and engine flow.

The m90 gen III ported and polished will be fine with a 3800 past 400 wheel horsepower with stock engine internals other than cam or rockers, so let me ask why you're interested in slapping on a turbo and probably killing your engine? :/


Don't get me wrong, for the longest time, I wanted to just "slap on an m90" onto my L36, call it a day, and "be making more power" as I thought than a stock L67. As it turns out, me being a foolish kid pretty much blinded me, and I didn't realize that I can make my L36 about as powerful as a stock L67 for less than ZZP sells the entire supercharger kit for my engine, and then I'd have to go a 4.0 pulley without supporting mods when stock is 3.8, because my 9.4:1 pistons are more prone to KR.


So basically, I would have been retarded to do that, but you already have a proven boost platform ready to go, and mods are much cheaper for you to gain significant horses, whereas I would have to spend $1200 to get the entire mod list to put me at 250 crank horses if it goes better than I think, however, that is a huge list that nearly eliminates KR for if I ever did boost, and just a gen V M90 alone with those supporting mods alone would be good for at least 320 wheel horses (gen 5 runs cooler and more efficient than even a ported Gen 3, meaning less torqueloss on the engine belt, as well as less heat meaning more dense air/more o2 to burn as well as less KR). You have a clear advantage of seeing huge gains for little money, and have the beautiful thing of seeing little bits of change see good progress, while I'm cursed by spending huge money on barely any gains in power. Don't take what you already have for granted shoot



By the way, best mod for cheap I can think of for you, is a fenderwell true cold air intake. You can get 4" tubing from hardware stores, and basically feed it through the fender with a K&N filter, drill a hole in the tubing for the AIT sensor, and clamp it to the throttle body. IT will improve your throttle response, help lower KR a little, improve engine sound, and just a bit of power. 10 degrees colder air is about 2-3 more horsepower.


Also, if you were to slap a turbo you have on, you'd have to do some kind of work to the exhaust manifold, probably have to do a headers job anyway, and that's more work than simply dropping pulley sizes, but keep in mind, KR not only makes your engine prone to detonating, but it also decreases power by the engine losing efficiency from not detonating right (pretty big power loss actually) as well as increasing heat, which is also a power loss.


So basically, I wouldn't put that turbo on unless you had a lot of supporting mods, and were aiming for more than 12 pounds of boost,, which would destroy a stock L67 pretty fast.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:39 pm

Of course I would use an intercooler. Yes I have an M90 series 3, L67.

I don't exactly understand where you are going. A Turbo with the supercharged internals will make more horsepower then any M90 could dream of. When talking big power, the M90 is a joke. The M90 is good for making boost under maybe 400WHP, but that's where the efficiency goes way down, makes way too much heat. Nothing under a 3.0 pulley is worth it, IMO. I am in no way going to "kill" an L67, IF properly set up, by going turbo. I would be making more power, with more boost, NO lag (adjustable vanes in the exhaust turbine housing) and little KR. I'd be running E85, that's one reason. I said N/A intake because an M90 block-off is very restrictive. I'd also use the HV3 insert from ZZP as well with that setup. Then use a Large water-to-air intercooler.

Haven't you seen the Club Grand Prix forum? Many members have done top swaps on a L36 with great results. Same on a Regal GS. I agree the ZZP kit is a waste of money, just buy the stuff needed, put it on, and bam you have more power then a stock L67, with no issues, just have to tune more carefully.

However, I do understand your point about messing up a good system as it is, and I completely agree. I doubt I would actually Turbo the L67 in my Riviera. If I don't, you bet I will install that Turbo my 3800 N/A (hopefully with better internals at that time) with a 5-speed Manual in my Fiero. Yes I swapped that powertrain in myself.

Now, to throw out some numbers and stats, because it has been done before the way I want to do it (in a Fiero). L32 bottom end, N/A intake, Holset He351VE Turbo, 60# injectors using E85, 1.9 rockers and 90# valve springs, Large intercooler, 5-speed manual with drag radials. Otherwise stock. Ran a 11.54@132.7MPH. 525+WHP. I don't remember the exact PSI of boost, but it's in the low 20's. Doesn't destroy a stock L67/L32 at all.

I have that exact same Turbo in my basement right now. All I need is time, and some money, and I could be running the same.

EDIT: Headers aren't good for a Turbo, you need as much heat and velocity into the Turbo as possible. The Powerlog is best for a Turbo.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:00 pm

Mattwa wrote:
Of course I would use an intercooler. Yes I have an M90 series 3, L67.

I don't exactly understand where you are going. A Turbo with the supercharged internals will make more horsepower then any M90 could dream of. When talking big power, the M90 is a joke. The M90 is good for making boost under maybe 400WHP, but that's where the efficiency goes way down, makes way too much heat. Nothing under a 3.0 pulley is worth it, IMO. I am in no way going to "kill" an L67, IF properly set up, by going turbo. I would be making more power, with more boost, NO lag (adjustable vanes in the exhaust turbine housing) and little KR. I'd be running E85, that's one reason. I said N/A intake because an M90 block-off is very restrictive. I'd also use the HV3 insert from ZZP as well with that setup. Then use a Large water-to-air intercooler.

Haven't you seen the Club Grand Prix forum? Many members have done top swaps on a L36 with great results. Same on a Regal GS. I agree the ZZP kit is a waste of money, just buy the stuff needed, put it on, and bam you have more power then a stock L67, with no issues, just have to tune more carefully.

However, I do understand your point about messing up a good system as it is, and I completely agree. I doubt I would actually Turbo the L67 in my Riviera. If I don't, you bet I will install that Turbo my 3800 N/A (hopefully with better internals at that time) with a 5-speed Manual in my Fiero. Yes I swapped that powertrain in myself.

Now, to throw out some numbers and stats, because it has been done before the way I want to do it (in a Fiero). L32 bottom end, N/A intake, Holset He351VE Turbo, 60# injectors using E85, 1.9 rockers and 90# valve springs, Large intercooler, 5-speed manual with drag radials. Otherwise stock. Ran a 11.54@132.7MPH. 525+WHP. I don't remember the exact PSI of boost, but it's in the low 20's. Doesn't destroy a stock L67/L32 at all.

I have that exact same Turbo in my basement right now. All I need is time, and some money, and I could be running the same.

EDIT: Headers aren't good for a Turbo, you need as much heat and velocity into the Turbo as possible. The Powerlog is best for a Turbo.

You're right, I could top swap, and be okay, with a 4.0 pulley, but KR would destroy my engine pretty fast as soon as I started dropping pulley sizes, unless I had those supporting mods, or an intercooler :3

interooler plus e85 would probably eliminate KR up to 500 WHP, I don't deny that, but e85 isn't exactly for every day use :3


And that's awesome you know as much as you do, but why would you want more than 400whp in a riviera? It's just not the right platform to aim for under 11 seconds in the 4th. I'd never honestly want more than 300 whp in my Riv, because I'd probably kill myself with more, the way I drive, on this platform at least.

Turbo in a GTP makes much, much more sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:08 pm

You are correct, that much power in a Riviera wouldn't be the best idea, I was just saying it can be done. wink

Back to speaker and headunit talk. haha. PM sent.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:16 pm

Yeah we went a little off topic :o

anyway, If you want clean sound for cheap, I'd reccomend that pioneer driver. You will get more sound from less power, meaning the woofer diaphragm requires less excursion to make the same SPL (sound pressure level), because 94db is extremely efficient for any $50 driver, or even ANY 12" driver. This is a VERY good thing for drivers because the more the woofer moves to make the same SPL, the less accurate the sound will be, because while the woofer is moving back and fourth 20-80 times a second, the less it travels to make the same deep note, the more on point the bass hits will be in accordance with the actual music, and the more musical the sub will sound. This is essential if you care about sound quality for rock and metal music more than rap and electonic, even moreso for classical music if it has an organ in it, or tymphany drums. Dual voice coils means you can wire it into a 2 ohm load and easily get 400 watts out of almost any cheap monoblock sub amp, slap it in any sealed 1.25 cu ft box, and you have a hard hitting super cheap clean sub for the monies.

For the 5.25 i STRONGLY recommend those Polk DB521. I recommend entry level Pioneer decks for your head unit, and they look great in green.



I'm pretty sure mine was like $75 at Walmart, which I'm happy with actually until I get the Pioneer Appradio 2
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:45 pm

Wow!! No kidding, I have that exact Pioneer radio in my Fiero. I love it, works great. But like I said, I would like to put a double din in there since there is enough space...at least more then a Fiero.

But thanks for the rest of the stuff, I'll keep those links/items saved. smile
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:59 pm

Double din decks are more pricey but I think Walmart has a JVC one with bluetooth for like $150 which has color changing options and usb input as well.

I was honestly thinking about mounting my old iPad where that radio setup is for the longest time, before I sold the crappy iPad.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:10 am

Actually, i'm planning on mounting a Tablet in the Riv soon, next to the radio, as my scan gauge via Torque app.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:19 am

That was my plan as well, until I found this:

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-AppRadio-Stereo-Control-Capacitive/dp/B006Y44PCU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342585058&sr=8-1&keywords=appradio+2

http://www.appradioworld.com/2012/05/here-are-apps-that-are-appradio.html

You can use this with an android or iphone and simply use dashcommand and have a doubled in head unit do that, and scan engine codes as well.

This is better because it interfaces with your phone, letting you have an all in 1 device, and already has pre amp output options like a head unit
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:44 am

Dude. I want that now. Lol. All in one unit. I really want it to be able to work with Torque. But that other one might work as well. cheaper then I was expecting.
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:04 am

The only possible thing I'd want more out of that head unit is the ability to read and text off of it at a traffic stop or something, and I hope you can make phone calls off of it
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PostSubject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps   Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:49 am

I use my iPhone suction mount for all that + GPS & dyno for the car!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 281k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO 85k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 116k miles 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica 152k miles 0-60: yes
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