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 3800 Series II interchange?

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Ryan from Ohio
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PostSubject: 3800 Series II interchange?   Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:28 pm

As some may know I got a 95 without the S/C obviously.

Im looking at replacing the engine if it proves to be to bad to repair (90% likely).

Now Im looking for motors and I found one from a 2003 Impala with 36K on it.

Will this be a direct fit? Or is it just some mounting issues? Like unbolting application specific mounts and bolting to new motor?

Ive read some of these motors wont fit? I dont understand it.

Ive done a few motor swaps over last 3 years. 88 Beretta 2.8, 3100 Buick Century and a Saturn 4 banger (junker).
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:07 pm

afaik it should fit, but you'll need to swap all your old sensors. I think they might have relocated the knock sensor over the years, not positive about that.
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PostSubject: Is there any other way of retrieving DTC's?   Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:36 pm

I did an engine swap and now I have a misfire and a glowing exhaust manifold. I'm thinking I have a stuck injector or two, but I'm not sure which one. I had an old Chrysler that would flash the CEL when you cycled the key three times, and an old town car which would do the same if I jumped two wires in the DAta link connector. Is there a way to retrieve diagnostic trouble codes without the special adapter on my 95 riv, n/a?
Thanks in advance.


P.s. If a mod merges this into another thread, could you please give me a heads up so I might find it later?
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:07 pm

EatDirtFartDust wrote:
I did an engine swap and now I have a misfire and a glowing exhaust manifold. I'm thinking I have a stuck injector or two, but I'm not sure which one. I had an old Chrysler that would flash the CEL when you cycled the key three times, and an old town car which would do the same if I jumped two wires in the DAta link connector. Is there a way to retrieve diagnostic trouble codes without the special adapter on my 95 riv, n/a?
Thanks in advance.


P.s. If a mod merges this into another thread, could you please give me a heads up so I might find it later?

Sorry, no.

there are some things you can do with out a Tech II or code scanner, such as re-link remote fobs, but you can not pull the codes AFAIK.
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:03 am

The "turn key 3 times" method is for OBD I vehicles. All OBD II vehicles require a scanner to retrieve the codes. And, being that yours is a '95, you have a cross breed. You have an "OBD I" monitoring setup with an OBD II DLC. Your going to need something better than just a code scanner to pull codes from that car.

The manifold is glowing??? That's an odd one. I could see the CAT glowing easily, but the manifold??? The only time I've ever made a manifold glow is on my old turbo car....doesn't mean it can't happen though.
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EatDirtFartDust
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:19 am

I've got an extended crank before starting, misfire while running, glowing exhaust, and I've used a quarter tank of petrol from just 30 minutes of idling and a 7 mile test drive. I'm going to verify today with a gauge, but I think either cylinder 3 or 5 has an injector stuck open.
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:34 am

That sucks.

Aside from using a gauge......do you have an Ohm meter? You can unplug the Injector plugs, and measure the resistance of the Injectors themselves (across the terminals). They should read in the area of about 13 ohms to 15 ohms. A perfect Injector is around 14 ohms. It's an easy check. This will tell you if the coil inside is good or not.
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:49 am

Ok, thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:51 am

Abaddon wrote:
That sucks.

Aside from using a gauge......do you have an Ohm meter? You can unplug the Injector plugs, and measure the resistance of the Injectors themselves (across the terminals). They should read in the area of about 13 ohms to 15 ohms. A perfect Injector is around 14 ohms. It's an easy check. This will tell you if the coil inside is good or not.

what do you think of getting a few working used JY injectors and swapping? I mean, they might need cleaned but people don't usually junk their cars over injectors do they?

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:42 am

albertj wrote:
what do you think of getting a few working used JY injectors and swapping? I mean, they might need cleaned but people don't usually junk their cars over injectors do they?

Albertj

I say absolutely. In fact, L67 and I went to the JY (pick ur own) just before it got really cold and took the entire front bank of Injectors from a S/C car (one of his Injectors cracked). I think it cost like $18 for all 3.

Injectors aren't necessarily going to go bad sitting in a JY. As long as the engine hasn't been shredded, and the FI's are still inside the rail and the LIM, they should be fine. We cleaned them up here at the shop, and now he's on his merry way yay
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:04 pm

The new engine is out of a 99 Monte Carlo, and I dont know how long it sat in the junk yard. I still have the six injectors that came out of my old block, but that car sat for a year so I can't be so sure that any of those are better than the ones in the new engine.
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:02 pm

Ok wait a minute, you put a '99 engine in a '95? I'll assume that you changed the PCM, the engine harness, and all that jazz with it?
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:09 pm

I had to swap the right exhaust manifold, all the engine mounts, alternator mounting bracket, and throttle body.
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:13 pm

Ok, so you just put the block in? I don't understand. Please give us everything that you did in order to get where you're at right now. I can't give you any more information until I know what exactly has been swapped/done/modified etc etc.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:17 pm

If you just swapped the engine without modifying the PCM's fuel map and timing, your injectors could be fine. The manifolds will glow red if you're running very rich/retarted timing (like if the fuel maps/timing are wrong).

Other possibilities are a bad O2 or clogged cat converter.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


Last edited by AA on Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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EatDirtFartDust
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:21 pm

I had to transfer:
all engine mounts,
throttle body,
rear/right exhaust manifold,
a/c compressor
alternator mounting bracket and alternator,
power steering pump,


The only sensor which had a different connector was the oxygen sensor, and that was transferred when I swapped the manifold. Other than that the newer engine has a pressure sensor built into the intake manifold which is just not-used with my wiring harness.

Once I swapped those things listed, it bolted right up and once fuel pressure was built up it started and ran fine, it then developed a misfire and started using fuel quickly. I presumed a stuck fuel injector because that is common when these engines sit for long periods of time.
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:49 pm

It's strange, Rockauto's cross reference shows both the '95 Riv and '99 Monte use the same Marshall long block #G23111C, but the Riviera's is priced $200 less than the Monte's. Also, the engine for the '95 Riv engine shows matches for the following:

BUICK LESABRE CUSTOM 1996 - 1997
BUICK LESABRE LIMITED 1996 - 1997
BUICK PARK AVENUE 1995 - 1997
BUICK REGAL CUSTOM 1996
BUICK REGAL GRAN SPORT 1996
BUICK REGAL LIMITED 1996
BUICK REGAL LS 1997
BUICK RIVIERA 1995 - 1997
OLDSMOBILE 88 ROYALE 1995 - 1997
OLDSMOBILE 88 ROYALE LS 1995 - 1997
OLDSMOBILE 88 ROYALE LSS 1995
OLDSMOBILE 98 REGENCY ELITE 1995 - 1996
OLDSMOBILE LSS 1996 - 1997
OLDSMOBILE REGENCY 1997
PONTIAC BONNEVILLE SE 1995 - 1997
PONTIAC GRAND PRIX GT 1997
PONTIAC GRAND PRIX SE 1997

The '99 Monte engine only shows a match for these:

OLDSMOBILE LSS 1998 - 1999
OLDSMOBILE REGENCY 1998
PONTIAC BONNEVILLE 1999 - 2003
PONTIAC BONNEVILLE SE 1998 - 2005
PONTIAC BONNEVILLE SLE 2004 - 2005
PONTIAC GRAND PRIX 1999 - 2006
PONTIAC GRAND PRIX GT 1998 - 2004
PONTIAC GRAND PRIX SE 1998

Wonder what happened after 1997? scratch

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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EatDirtFartDust
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:54 pm

I studied both the old and new engines very closely and could see not differences except for what I listed. Something internal possibly?
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:51 pm

Well, you said you changed the rear manifold, and not the front. Does that mean the front manifold is from the Series I and the rear is a Series II??? I know that the manifolds are different. If the front manifolds' primaries (Series I) are too small for the Series II engine, that could be your problem, and the reason it's glowing. The front mani may have too much backpressure for the engine......

I would get the codes if you can and see what the PCM is saying.....
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:26 pm

'95 Rivs had a Series II N/A engine.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:45 pm

That settles that then. You're right, '95 N/A Riv and '99 N/A Monte have the same P/N's for the front exhaust manifold.

Pull the codes......


Last edited by Abaddon on Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:46 pm

Yeah, I had to change the rear manifold because on the Monte it was offset about two inches from where the Riv outputs to the convertor. The front is identical, except the Monte had fancy little heat shields on them.
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:04 pm

So I swapped out the cylinder 5 injector and my miss is gone!
It runs nice at idle, but as soon as I start to give gas it falls on its face at 1k rpm and stumbles up to 1500, then accels smooth after that. I swapped the TP sensor from the Montecarlo throttle body but that didnt change anything. The Monte had a different Mass air flow, so I can't swap those, but I think that's the next likely culprit. I'd hate to buy a new one and find out I dont need it though frown
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:05 pm

Also the gas in the tank is over a year old, so that could have something to do with it. I have a 74 mile drive home from my work and that would be enough to burn out most of that old gas, but then again, I'd hate to have to get a tow back into my work.
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PostSubject: Re: 3800 Series II interchange?   Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:35 pm

EatDirtFartDust wrote:
Also the gas in the tank is over a year old, so that could have something to do with it. I have a 74 mile drive home from my work and that would be enough to burn out most of that old gas, but then again, I'd hate to have to get a tow back into my work.

Someone with some experience with resurrecting cars please chime in -- what I want to know is if we added a bottle of Sta-Bil and a bottle of HEET to the gas tank would that volatilize and stabilize the fuel enough to burn it out without further serious headaches?

Albertj
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