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 Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security

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billythekid7
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:40 pm

i figured it out thanks
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:49 am

billythekid7 wrote:
i figured it out thanks

And... ?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:46 pm

Seriously, Billy, you can't ask about this problem for 3 pages, and then not tell us what the answer was...

Cough it up! puke
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:51 pm

Eldo wrote:
Seriously, Billy, you can't ask about this problem for 3 pages, and then not tell us what the answer was...

Cough it up! puke

Just make sure the dog isn't around to lick up the answer......
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:00 pm

Just took a careful read through the 6 pages of this thread. Lots of info, much of it conflicting. We've got one link telling us to cut an orange wire under the steering column in order to add a resistor, we've got another link saying to do something with a green wire in the driver side kick panel, and then we've had a vendor selling a module that will disable the security. So, what's correct?

For some time now (over a year), my car has been flashing the security light on at random times, but with no ill effects. Since I don't have much need for a security system anyhow, it didn't bother me if the lamp illuminated once in a while, as long as I could start the car.

Well, it finally happened about a month ago - out of the blue, the car would not start one day. After 3 minutes, it started fine with no problems. I started the car normally every day for about a week after. I know this was PASS-Key II because the 3 minute delay gives it away. The shop manual states:

"When a key is inserted in the ignition, contacts located in the steering column (ignition) lock cylinder contact a resistor pellet located in the ignition key. The PASS-Key II theft deterrent module measures the resistance of the key pellet and compares this value to the value stored in memory.

If the values do not match, PASS- Key II performs the following (system disable) functions for approximately three minutes:

No ground provided to the starter enable relay, disabling the starter.
No command to the PCM to enable the fuel delivery system.

If the the ignition switch is turned to the run position anytime during the system disable interval, PASS-Key II disregards the pellet value until the three minute interval is complete, even if the correct key value was used.

After three minutes, PASS-Key II measures the key pellet resistance and compares it to the value stored in memory. If the values match, the module performs the system enable function. If the values do not match, the module performs the system disable function (see above)."


Sure enough it happened again, and a few days later once more, until I finally had it happen twice in one day. Enough is enough, so I decided to look into a fix. I need to start the car every time, and waiting 3 minutes might work once every 20-30 starts, but every 2-3 starts is ridiculous.

First, I looked into the link on page 1 of this thread. I checked for the orange cable containing two smaller wires near the steering column - it does not exist, so you can't just slide a 10 resistor in there and call it a day. It may be a good idea for the other cars mentioned in the write-up, but I don't know why they included the Riviera in the listing.

Next step: read the Riviera shop manual. Doing so revealed some interesting things. The PASS-Key II module is in the passenger side (right) kick panel area, not the driver side. It's near the PCM:



I went under the dash and found the wires leading to the module. Here they are, viewing from the passenger front floor mat:



A closer view of the wires, which I unwrapped from the electrical tape:



Back to the shop manual, here's a schematic showing how the PASS-Key II module connects to the ignition cylinder. You can see the White/Black and Purple/White wires are the ones we need to deal with:



At this point, I read something else in the shop manual that I found interesting:

"If the PASS-Key II theft deterrent module is unable to measure the key pellet resistance (due to damaged or missing pellet), the PASS-Key II theft deterrent module does not perform the system enable or disable functions (no three minute interval is performed, a measurable key with correct resistance value can be used to start the vehicle)."

So what do you think happens when you cut the white/black wire? By my logic, the car should not start at all until the wire is reconnected, or a resistor is connected to simulate the key resistor pellet. But the car starts just fine with the wire cut. My first thought was maybe I cut the wrong wire, so I wrapped my key's resistor pellet in thin masking tape, inserted the key, and wouldn't you know the car starts right up!

I am thinking I will try driving the car as-is (with white/black wire cut) and see if I can get the three minute start delay to happen again. Not sure what's going to happen, but if the problem doesn't come back, I'll consider it solved. Stay tuned...

UPDATE: so far 3 good starts. I notice the security light is always on, so I think cutting that wire has changed things; good news is the car starts up so far.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:31 pm

Interesting stuff Aaron, hope you figure it out. I have a question though, does that mean that if the pellet in someones' keys is damaged, that the car will start up because the PASS-Key II theft deterrent module is unable to measure the key pellet resistance and thus does not perform the system enable or disable function? ?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:51 pm

I'd like to think that, because the Security light has been illuminating sporadically for over a year, you have a defective PASS module...
If it only takes cutting one wire to start the car, that's not much of a f***ing security system! gripe
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:54 pm

I agree it is odd, but so far 6 consecutive starts.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:11 am

Eldo wrote:
I'd like to think that, because the Security light has been illuminating sporadically for over a year, you have a defective PASS module...

But do you think it's the PASS module that is defective or the lack of/damaged pellet in the key that "disengages" the PASS module during start up?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sun Aug 22, 2010 1:54 am

BMD wrote:
Eldo wrote:
I'd like to think that, because the Security light has been illuminating sporadically for over a year, you have a defective PASS module...

But do you think it's the PASS module that is defective or the lack of/damaged pellet in the key that "disengages" the PASS module during start up?

Despite the semantics in the manual, I'd like to think that they aren't complete morons... If the system lets you start the car with NO pellet, then it basically has no use.

BTW, my mom had a '92 LeSabre with the PASSkey 1 system, and just to test and demonstrate it I had a 'regular' key cut. I could turn the ignition and play the radio, but no starter...
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:16 am

Quote :
Despite the semantics in the manual, I'd like to think that they aren't complete morons...
Weren't you the one who called them 'morons' in a recent thread? We can settle this: wrap some tape around your key pellet and see what happens. Can't hurt to try.

I agree my PASS-Key module may be failing some, but it was working most of the time. Even though the problem was getting annoying, it was still only an occasional thing.

UPDATE: 11 consecutive starts since cutting the wire...

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:53 pm

AA wrote:
Quote :
Despite the semantics in the manual, I'd like to think that they aren't complete morons...
Weren't you the one who called them 'morons' in a recent thread?
We can settle this: wrap some tape around your key pellet and see what happens. Can't hurt to try.

Well, there are many sub-systems on the car, ergo there can be many different morons... Also, you obviously don't grasp the subtle difference between 'moron' and 'complete moron'. razz

You are right, though, it can't hurt to try your experiment...


UPDATE: Yes, it can hurt to try - I now have a secure car, and a piece of tape stuck in the ignition... .Bah-dum-bump!!

But seriously folks, here's what happens with my "normal" PASSkey II system:

- Untaped key ON, the Security Light goes on solid for about 5 seconds (5 seat-belt chimes,) and the car starts.
- Taped key ON, the Security Light flashes, and the START position does nothing...


So, I think that Aaron's module is defective, and it was trying to tell him so with the light that came on occasionally when it wasn't supposed to. Granted, if the module is bad the Security Light is supposed to be on all the time, but that's probably just a defect within a defect.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:56 am

AA's problem could have also been a bad key pellet or bad ignition switch.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:22 am

I don't think the key was the problem. I have a spare key that I almost never use. Using it did not fix the problem.

If the lock cylinder contacts were not making contact, I suspect the result would be the same as using tape on the key, or cutting the white/blk wire - with a healthy PASS-Key module. After Eldo's test, I am agreeing it is probably a failing module.

One more test, Eldo - try cutting your white wire and see what happens? wink Come on, I know you're curious at least... I'd do it for you.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:36 am

cheapest good solution is probably getting a pulled pass-key module from Morad that uses the same resistor value as the one you have in, and as well checking the ignition lock...

it makes sense that GM would design the system for this kind of work-around, in which when the pass-key module fails then disabling it by snipping that wire will get it going. The GM engineers usually leave you a way to keep their cars running if you know what you are doing...

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:45 pm

I agree, Albert. I have a friend who drives a high mile Saturn. They have a common problem with the OEM security system, but with a 10 minute delay period! And it only happens when it's cold out. Interestingly, the 'solution' is to cut a white wire under the steering column. The result is a guaranteed start, and a constant SECURTY lamp. My friend wired a switch to use the security system most of the year, but turns it off in the winter.

I did purchase a resistor, so I want to attempt wiring it as a 'dummy pellet'. If that works, great. Otherwise I'll leave the whit/blk wire cut until I see some other reason to replace the module.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:45 pm

AA wrote:
I agree, Albert. I have a friend who drives a high mile Saturn. They have a common problem with the OEM security system, but with a 10 minute delay period! And it only happens when it's cold out. Interestingly, the 'solution' is to cut a white wire under the steering column. The result is a guaranteed start, and a constant SECURTY lamp. My friend wired a switch to use the security system most of the year, but turns it off in the winter.

I did purchase a resistor, so I want to attempt wiring it as a 'dummy pellet'. If that works, great. Otherwise I'll leave the whit/blk wire cut until I see some other reason to replace the module.

I would check with Morad on the price of that module. If a pulled module is say $5 or $10, might as well swap a good one in and be done with it.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:02 am

You're probably right, although it does not look easy to pull the module.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:35 pm

AA wrote:
After Eldo's test, I am agreeing it is probably a failing module.
One more test, Eldo - try cutting your white wire and see what happens? wink Come on, I know you're curious at least... I'd do it for you.
Riiiiiiiiiight... headshot

AA wrote:
You're probably right, although it does not look easy to pull the module.
Actually I don't think it's too bad. It looks like the Programmer unclips like the PCM does, then you just unscrew the Programmer bracket and pull the PASS module off the back of it. I think the starter-enable relay would be worse.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:35 pm

So tell me AA how did the test turn out after you cut the white and black wire, is it still starting like it is supposed to?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:54 pm

I'm up to over 30 starts without a single incident after cutting the wire. The security lamp is always on, but the car starts every time. Easy fix, but technically car is more vulnerable to theft. Good thing late model Buicks are among the lowest in theft claim of any vehicle.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:32 pm

Aaron do you know if the 95 is in the same position for the security system
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 pm

well I can tell you that cutting the white and black wire on a 95 isn't the route to take cause it won't start at all so I swaped mine out from the parts car and now it starts right up hopefully it will keep doing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:09 am

well for some more information after changing the mod from the parts car, everything works but the security light stays on all of the time now, but like Aaron says who cares as long as it works. And I did it the right way and it still lights up.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:29 am

is it always on or only when the key is in? If its only with the key its possible that the module you swapped in is expecting to see a different resistance reading then the pellet in your key supplies? Just a theory
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