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 Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security

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BatMobile
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PostSubject: Disabling the Security VATS system    Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:01 pm

I don't know why my other topic is "locked" and I can't post a thank-you, so started this to say thanks to the helpful respondents! Problem is 96 Riv sometimes won't start. All bells and whistles, but engine won't turn over. Has anyone tried with success the newrockies.ca or Luca's remedy? There is a fee for it, so just wondered how surefire it is. Thanks again!
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:44 pm

Hi,
There's a write-up you can find in the interior section about this issue.
I am also having issues with the 3 minute wait thing. I'm guessing my only key is a bit worn so contact is hit and miss, hence I wait 3 minutes every miss.
I ordered new blanks and hope that will remedy the situation, but have discovered that if I insert the key and when turning the ignition on, apply pressure using the wings of the assembly (without touching the key itself), it starts most every time.
This technique is not a fix, but I can get where I need to go until I get new keys.
My preference is to NOT disarm a perfectly good alarm, but to find the fix.
Good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:17 pm

Just FYI:
I received 2 blank VATS keys from an eBay source. $20 for 2 w/free shipping. I had to measure the resistance across the resistor contacts on the original so I could order the correct keys (so many different values!).
Checked them upon arrival. Had one cut from original at the local hardware store ($1.75). Has worked perfectly every time. Beats sitting at the gas station for 30 minutes (3min. X 10 bad signals) waiting for the worn key to catch.
It's easy to feel the difference between the worn contacts and the new. No contest.
Case closed.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:07 am

Thanks, Sean, for sharing your remedy!
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:26 pm

With sadness, egg on my face, and a renewed dislike for my security system I further report that after one week with no trouble, today I again had 3 minute delay issues starting my Riv. Even with new keys, I believe there is still bad contact in the ignition cylinder. Am guessing that along with the wear and tear on the key that's easily fixable, I may have to check the wear on the other end.. inside the steering column. Curses!
It does start if I turn the key to the run position, hesitate to give contact a moment to happen, then to start, it works.
Makes me want to slap the car around a bit for not acknowledging I'm the owner! hammer
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:52 pm

Sorry I missed your earlier post, or I would have advised you not buy the new keys. The 3 minute delay is usually a result of a failing security module, or a faulty lock cylinder. If you read through the write-up there is a fix mentioned, involving the use of a resistor across two wires. In my case, cutting one of the wires fixed the issue permanently. Someone else tried the same with unsatisfactory results. I think it depends on what is actually causing the problem. Cutting the wire seems to work if the module is bad. The resistor method should work if the lock cylinder is bad. These are patch methods, so if you want the security system to function, you'll likely be replacing one or both of those components. Best of luck.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:50 pm

That said, is there a test to confirm the security module integrity?
No sense in making mods as trial and error unless as a last resort.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:14 pm

I am not sure of a test. There may be a troubleshooting guide in the shop manual.

The patch is technically a "trial" with 50% success rate, but the process is just the cutting of one wire, and the "error" part is completely reversible by reconnecting it. We have identified the wire(s), so that part at least we are not leaving to chance.

Instructions are on page 6 of this thread. The two options are:

1) Cut the white wire - this fixed my problem.

2) Bridge the white and purple wires with a resistor of equal key pellet resistance - this should fool the system into thinking the key is inserted. I didn't try this.

In my case the situation was getting to the point where every 3rd or 4th start attempt was a no start with a 3 minute wait, so it was getting old really fast. Cutting the white wire fixed the problem of starting the car, but I still have the resistor, and I may install it. Doing so should make the SECURITY lamp go off.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:52 pm

Well, I've got to do something fast. After starting first thing this morning on the way to work, I waited an hour in the parking garage after work for this #@#&*ing thing to decide to start so I could get outta there. Then sat idling while I filled the tank (like the old days when nobody cared if your car ran while gassing up). You're right... this gets old fast.
This just can't happen tomorrow morning... more important than work, I have a make-up golf tournament that had been postponed because of rain, then that dang hurricane that took out the course in Vermont we were to play the same day. Guess I'll be up earlier than expected smile
I rather be stuck at the 19th hole than in my driveway.

To your knowledge, is it possible to get a replacement module for a reasonable price?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:44 pm

I feel your pain. Probably first step is to check with Morad Autoparts for the module. It probably isn't more than $50. Otherwise a pick& pull yard is the best place to go. Car-part.com will let you search the database.

Keep in mind, you're going to be pulling a few things under the dash (including the wires mentioned above) in order to install the module, so be ready for an evening of careful work. Have coffee at the ready. And pray it's not the lock cylinder, or the module won't fix it.

You're still playing the trial & error game until you know exactly whats causing it. Splicing in the resister is one way to troubleshoot the problem, imo. To do that, you start by cutting the white wire.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:00 pm

Belay that last question, AA.
It seems to me that this thread is exhausted. It goes 'round in circles, offers iffy answers based on trial and error, including a module (lamluca) that itself complicates the issue as a replacement subject to its own weaknesses of failure down the road. Simple is better, yet this unit only promises to start your car while dissing the security system, nothing added.
Personally, I'd like to kill 2 birds with one stone.
How about a new thread focusing on a remote start/alarm system that ignores the stock security completely?
Benefits:
> the usual joy of a warm seat in winter, and a cool one in summer, and peripheral bennies.
> Independent security system (VATS, PassKey II, whatever.... gone!) GM didn't do us any favors with this thing. Would like to twist the nose of the engineers involved!
> Pay one time for both luxuries ( if you consider starting every time a luxury... and I do at this point!)
Granted, this adds an electronic component subject to its own failure. But say goodbye to GM's frail system.
Please archive this thread with appropriate notation that it leads nowhere.
Start another (or I can) that invites responses from experiences with remote starters/alarms that could lead to a permanent solution.
Not only is this an issue for Rivs, but for many other GM vehicles.
With the right enthusiasm, could be the start of something big smile

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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:03 pm

We do have a thread discussing aftermarket alarm systems and remote starts. If you purchase a security system and want to create a write-up, it would be most welcome.

I think this thread provides a lot of clues from various member experiences. I was in the EXACT same situation you are in now, and in desperate need to start my car every morning. I read through the thread, referenced my shop manual, and made some conclusions based on all the info. The resulting solution worked for me - a 100% fix to the starting issue that took about 1/2 hour. Maybe you aren't coming to the same conclusion I did, and this could be because you see a need for a functioning security system, whereas I really didn't see the same need.

I hate to sound repetitive, but based on my own and others' experience, the following may be used to diagnose the problem:

1. Cutting the white wire may fix the starting issue, resulting in a disabled security system (SECURITY lamp on). This likely indicates the security module has failed.

2. Bridging the white and purple wires using a resistor to simulate key pellet resistance will fix in a case where the lock cylinder has failed. This bypasses the key pellet, tricking the security system. If the security module is working, SECURITY lamp should go off.


Performing the above two steps should give insight as to whether the lock cylinder, the security module, or both have failed.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:14 pm

More egg on thy face. I swabbed the ignition cylinder (contact tabs) with electronics cleaner and have had 6-7 successive starts without a failure in the driveway since. Glad I have a new and massive battery.

It strikes home that I should have done this way earlier. Although the clean produced little residue, I failed to consider the large importance of cleaning when resistance is the prime factor. Even a small amount of grime could easily skew the resistance value beyond the acceptable range of my key. Live and learn.

My plan remains to replace the stock alarm with a capable 2-way remote starter and alarm system... as the way forward. Even the Riv with advanced features and timeless styling needs to move forward at sweet 16.

Lesson: CLEAN FIRST. It's cheap and easy.
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PostSubject: Vats/Passkey/Passlock problem   Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:45 am

I have a 96 riv and while i am driving the security light will randomaly come on for a few minutes and go away. From what i have read this is the beginning of a big and costly problem. I have also read that you can create an output signal from the tdm to the computer to bypass the security system. Have any of you had this problem / fixed this problem?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:51 pm

dtrumbo wrote:
I have a 96 riv and while i am driving the security light will randomaly come on for a few minutes and go away. From what i have read this is the beginning of a big and costly problem. I have also read that you can create an output signal from the tdm to the computer to bypass the security system. Have any of you had this problem / fixed this problem?

Check the pads in the ignition keyway, clean it with a bit of 91% alcohol or dry gas on a cotton swab, also consider the condition of the contacts on the chip that's on your key.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:54 pm


_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:02 pm

i have a 1990 buick riviera and i actually had the same problem with the pass key system and i actually had a open wire in the steering colum and instead of ripping apart the colum i bypassed the system and wired a resistor in and ever since i havent had a problem. you can also get a piece that immitates the passkey system and it will also bypass the passkey
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:24 pm

Last night my car decided to shine the Security light for about a minute after the car was on. This happened twice. The car ran fine, but the light was on. Tonight the light went on and stayed on... as if it were defying me. Grrrrrrr.... So I pulled the bulb out of that side of the dash. What worries me is if this will turn into an issue where the car will leave me stranded. Anyone have these exact symptoms and able to fix? frown

Thanks guys!

-R
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:26 pm

Yep, need to read through the thread. There are a couple things you can try.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:47 pm

Damn you Aaron. I wanted to be lazy. razz

Read along I must! -Yoda

lol
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:27 am

If the light is on there should be a code somewhere that a good scanner can detect. I'm not sure but I think it will go on to let you know it's time for an oil change too!
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:25 pm

I scanned through quickly and just wanted to provide a contemporary edit to this thread for anyone who happens upon the end of it and has to weed back through like I did.

*The heart of the solution sits on Page 10 where Aaron explains the two most likely culprits and provides solutions as well as pics for each.*

One question, and this is for something I didn't see an actual image for, what wire/s would I have to splice the correct resistors to? I'm leaning towards the module on my car and if that's the case, I'll just cut the white and black wire as directed.

Thanks rivperformance and Aaron for providing the detailed writeup!
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:30 pm

Actually, my write-up is on page 12.

Try cutting the White/Black wire. If that doesn't do the trick, you have the option of wiring the resistor between the white/black and the purple/white wire next to it (see picture on page 12). A 5k ohm trimmer type resistor will allow you to dial in the needed value.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security   Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:01 am

This is almost too moronic to mention, but:

My 'original' ignition key had just started to light the Security light while driving, even though it still started the engine on the first try... Turns out that the plastic pellet that holds the resistor in the key had started to get loose - I could push it back & forth a bit in the key.

A touch of Crazy Glue and I'm back in business.
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PostSubject: Vats Problem   Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:47 pm

I'm having a issue with my 97, sometimes it will start and other times I have to go through the relearn process. Is there a way to bypass the system I also I have a PLDATA box I got when I installed my remote start I never got around to installing it.
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