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 Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors

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UKRAINIAN
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PostSubject: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:38 am

It's time consuming project.














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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:50 am

awesome work. very nice. thumbsup
great job clap
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:46 am

Great work! I think I would get some speaker grills on them speakers to advoid from kicking them in.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:27 pm

wow! very slick!

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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:01 pm

very clean install
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:22 pm

very well done. i agree with the speaker covers though, i'd hate to see the passenger's foot punch right through the speaker getting out of the car.

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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:48 am

Well, the covers are bigger than speakers, 6.5 inch was the biggest possible size to fit there, so I made it my way. But cowers are necessary, I just got use to watch my feet. It's OK place for mid base speakers but not for tweeters. I have done a stereo system in couple of cars, Riviera is most difficult. I didn't want to ruin original interior to much, and make it cheap looking car.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:02 am

Looking good. I've always wanted to add 6.5" speakers to the front.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:18 pm

very nice install!

yea, not the best place for tweeters, but aren't the tweeters supposed to be near the midrange component like you have them setup?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:33 pm

I like the set up. Very nicely done!
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:38 pm

very nice, worth your time i think!
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:33 pm

damn that looks like it is factory. is that fiberglass you used with a vinyl/leather cover over it?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:11 pm

dreww wrote:
yea, not the best place for tweeters, but aren't the tweeters supposed to be near the midrange component like you have them setup?
In a car, I don't think position would make much difference unless you had something covering it (obviously couldn't put it back really far in the door where it would be hitting the seat and your body). They're not that directional so they're fine most anywhere you put them.

Looks good btw, definitely get a grill for that speaker. Might be an okay look for home audio but not car audio! A tiny suggestion of mine, if it had a dark maroon colored covering on it that is similar in tone to the door panel it would look flawless. Looks good as is, but that would be perfection and look completely factory.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:03 pm

Quote :
In a car, I don't think position would make much difference unless you had something covering it (obviously couldn't put it back really far in the door where it would be hitting the seat and your body). They're not that directional so they're fine most anywhere you put them.

That would be true until you consider phase (time alignment).

Speaker positions can make as much difference as the music source, amplifiers, and wiring put together. Kick panel and deep dash locations offer an advantage over A-pillar and front dash mounting because they utilize more equal path-lengths.

When the speakers are further away from the ears, such as on the floor, the difference in distance between the left & right becomes less. This means phasing becomes more optimum, more like in a home, where the speakers are nearly the same distance from the listener. Conversely, when you mount one tweeter right in front of your ear, on the driver side dash or A-pillar, and the other one way over on the other side of the car - this skews the sound image to the left.

This is why door mounting works so well. It pulls the speakers further away from your ear, better equalizing their distances. The result is up-front sound with better realism. The best sounding car I ever sat in actually routed the steering column and wheel to the back seat (fully functional, btw). Not surprisingly, that car was the first in IASCA history to score perfect on the RTA. This is hard to do in the best home audio systems.

All speakers are directional, but good car speakers have consistent and flat off-axis response. They are meant to be listened to at 30 or 60Ί angle off-axis, so you don't want to aim them directly at the listeners' ears. This is how you can have such good sound from a door speaker firing at your feet. Tweeters can be aimed for better response, because they are more directional by nature.

Another thing - keeping the tweeter and mid close together will always sound the best - once again because proper phase is preserved. This way all of the sounds: low, mid, and treble arrive at your ears at the same time. This is why some coaxial systems sound very good, and it's why some components can sound very bad. When you separate the tweeter and mid, you're asking for trouble. Unless you electronically compensate using time delay, you cannot make up for the difference in path length / phase / time.

Nice install, UKRAINIAN!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 280k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
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EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ RIV IS FOR SALE! ^^^

'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'95 Celica • 150k miles • 0-60: yes
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:30 pm

AA wrote:
Quote :
In a car, I don't think position would make much difference unless you had something covering it (obviously couldn't put it back really far in the door where it would be hitting the seat and your body). They're not that directional so they're fine most anywhere you put them.

That would be true until you consider phase (time alignment).

Speaker positions can make as much difference as the music source, amplifiers, and wiring put together. Kick panel and deep dash locations offer an advantage over A-pillar and front dash mounting because they utilize more equal path-lengths.

When the speakers are further away from the ears, such as on the floor, the difference in distance between the left & right becomes less. This means phasing becomes more optimum, more like in a home, where the speakers are nearly the same distance from the listener. Conversely, when you mount one tweeter right in front of your ear, on the driver side dash or A-pillar, and the other one way over on the other side of the car - this skews the sound image to the left.

This is why door mounting works so well. It pulls the speakers further away from your ear, better equalizing their distances. The result is up-front sound with better realism. The best sounding car I ever sat in actually routed the steering column and wheel to the back seat (fully functional, btw). Not surprisingly, that car was the first in IASCA history to score perfect on the RTA. This is hard to do in the best home audio systems.

All speakers are directional, but good car speakers have consistent and flat off-axis response. They are meant to be listened to at 30 or 60Ί angle off-axis, so you don't want to aim them directly at the listeners' ears. This is how you can have such good sound from a door speaker firing at your feet. Tweeters can be aimed for better response, because they are more directional by nature.

Another thing - keeping the tweeter and mid close together will always sound the best - once again because proper phase is preserved. This way all of the sounds: low, mid, and treble arrive at your ears at the same time. This is why some coaxial systems sound very good, and it's why some components can sound very bad. When you separate the tweeter and mid, you're asking for trouble. Unless you electronically compensate using time delay, you cannot make up for the difference in path length / phase / time.
Thanks professor, now put it back in your pants! Where's Travis to do the honors?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:19 pm

lmao
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PostSubject: will 6.5 inch speakers fit my doors?    Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:43 am

I got a special deal on Alpine 6x9's with some 6.5's with high end silk dome tweeters. I LOVE silk domes. But my car is pretty much impounded right now. I have no access to it right now.


I'm pretty sure the 6x9 speakers will fit. ?

I KNOW my door speakers are 5.25 inch speakers. I remember a member telling me he used some high end speakers, infinity maybe? That were 6.5 and they fit for him?

Should I just return the 6.5 right now, or plan on making them fit? These are some pretty damn good door speakers. I might have to use fiberglass and remold my door panels to make them fit?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:28 pm

AA wrote:
Quote :
In a car, I don't think position would make much difference unless you had something covering it (obviously couldn't put it back really far in the door where it would be hitting the seat and your body). They're not that directional so they're fine most anywhere you put them.

That would be true until you consider phase (time alignment).

Speaker positions can make as much difference as the music source, amplifiers, and wiring put together. Kick panel and deep dash locations offer an advantage over A-pillar and front dash mounting because they utilize more equal path-lengths.

When the speakers are further away from the ears, such as on the floor, the difference in distance between the left & right becomes less. This means phasing becomes more optimum, more like in a home, where the speakers are nearly the same distance from the listener. Conversely, when you mount one tweeter right in front of your ear, on the driver side dash or A-pillar, and the other one way over on the other side of the car - this skews the sound image to the left.

This is why door mounting works so well. It pulls the speakers further away from your ear, better equalizing their distances. The result is up-front sound with better realism. The best sounding car I ever sat in actually routed the steering column and wheel to the back seat (fully functional, btw). Not surprisingly, that car was the first in IASCA history to score perfect on the RTA. This is hard to do in the best home audio systems.

All speakers are directional, but good car speakers have consistent and flat off-axis response. They are meant to be listened to at 30 or 60Ί angle off-axis, so you don't want to aim them directly at the listeners' ears. This is how you can have such good sound from a door speaker firing at your feet. Tweeters can be aimed for better response, because they are more directional by nature.

Another thing - keeping the tweeter and mid close together will always sound the best - once again because proper phase is preserved. This way all of the sounds: low, mid, and treble arrive at your ears at the same time. This is why some coaxial systems sound very good, and it's why some components can sound very bad. When you separate the tweeter and mid, you're asking for trouble. Unless you electronically compensate using time delay, you cannot make up for the difference in path length / phase / time.

Nice install, UKRAINIAN!

HOLY SHIT I'm glad I read this post!! I never really fully understood the importance of off-axis angles until reading that, then it clicked.

I intend to do what he did with my new alpine 6.5's.

http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/sps-610c

should I mount these not angled at the ears? I have no idea what the off-axis is, and no idea how to find out frown

EDIT:

I just emailed Alpine, but there is no way in HELL they will ever tell me. pretty sure the info most likely will never be available. I need to know the right angle to mount my speaker so that the sounds hit my ears perfectly, or there's no point in building it.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:12 am

Quote :
should I mount these not angled at the ears? I have no idea what the off-axis is, and no idea how to find out

I just emailed Alpine, but there is no way in HELL they will ever tell me. pretty sure the info most likely will never be available. I need to know the right angle to mount my speaker so that the sounds hit my ears perfectly, or there's no point in building it.
The point of a speaker having good off-axis sound is so you won't have to aim them directly at your ears. A car is such a bad acoustic environment, there's no way you'll get it perfect unless you do some kind of intense custom build that involves tearing up your dash and interior. It can be done, but if you don't know what you're doing, it probably won't be right.

If anything, Alpine will probably tell you to mount the speakers in the doors, as they were intended. Just so you know, the Type-S are the low-end line, so don't expect top performance. Here's Alpine's description from their site:

"Available in a wide range of sizes, the Type-S speakers are ideal replacements for factory speakers and are highly efficient so they can run off the built-in power from a factory or aftermarket head unit. The Type-S speakers also use an HD polymer frame for improved sound and installation, while a high-performance soft dome tweeter provides smooth, detailed sound. Cosmetically, the Type-S speakers look good behind factory grilles or can be used with the new hybrid mesh grilles (sold separately) for a customized look."

Basically, what that means is they are cheap and efficient replacement, and they look good. Don't expect much in the area of sound quality - these are not their quality line.

Here is their description of the Type-R:

"Type-R has taken a huge step forward with High-Amplitude Multi-Roll (HAMR) technology (patent pending), adapted from Alpine’s popular Type-R subwoofers, which provides clean, high-impact bass performance. The patented linear drive motor design uses a neodymium magnet and square-wire voice coil to provide linear motion over an extremely wide excursion range. The wave guide optimizes the acoustic impedance for smooth response and enhanced vocal clarity, both on and off axis. The ring tweeter with EQ ring and copper cap enhances both detail and output, while the swivel mount allows the sound to be focused for the best in-car performance."

Notice they are referencing specific materials and technologies that are intended to enhance sound quality. They mention stuff that matters, like the HAMR suspension, neo magnet, and wave guide. Notice the specific mention of off-axis response. These are all concrete things that result in measurable improvements in power handling and sound quality.

If you go with cheap speakers, you might get lucky with a custom install, and they could sound decent, or they might sound terrible. But using better components combined with outboard power amps, your chances of success increases. They usually will sound very good mounted in the stock locations, in my experience.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 280k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ RIV IS FOR SALE! ^^^

'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'95 Celica • 150k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:22 am

They do have swivel mount tweeters and they cost me $130. They weren't cheap by any means but they didn't cost an arm and a leg either. They have very good quality crossovers in the kit. The silk domes are awesome. And 80 watts RMS out of 6.5 inch speakers is no easy feat. The surrounds are extremely durable. I have yet to hear them but they are higher quality than the 6x9's which can rattle my mirror from the back. I have a 100watt per channel Alpine amp with 0.5% THD driving them which makes my pioneer head unit sound like garbage.

I want to basically make a fiberglass enclosure and mount it to the door. Do you know the optimal angle I should angle the woofer to get the sound perfectly in my ears from stock location?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:34 am

Maybe the quality of these speakers will work fine for you. The Alpine amp is a plus.

Rather than fabricating custom door pods, have you thought about building kick panels on the floor? Fairly easy to do - much easier than the doors.

Be careful not to seal any enclosures you build. These speakers were not made to work in a sealed box - they are meant to play infinite baffle, like they would be mounted in the doors. Would hate for you spend so much time working on enclosures, only to find out they sound terrible.

If mounting in the doors, maybe fabricate some adapter rings from MDF. tip the drivers up slightly if you can. If you go with kick panels, just aim them toward the moon roof.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 280k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ RIV IS FOR SALE! ^^^

'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'95 Celica • 150k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:38 am

Haha, someone is spoiled by extremely expensive audio equipment I presume? I definitely don't see these alpine as the best, or even ideal, but I'm not rich and I got a good deal. The do qualify as high fidelity speakers. I might not have $400 Focal drivers in my car, but that would be pointless.

Oh, and Bose has never made speakers that can even touch these. Most people haven't even heard high fidelity before.

Ohnand thanks for advice smile
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:54 am

I've never used Focal. I've never paid more than $200 for a pair of car speakers, and usually much less. My current set I found on ebay for $50, still new in the box (originally $400+ in the mid '90s). I liked the sound of them so much, I decided to buy a back-up set, which I eventually paid $200 for, shipped from England - a lot of that was shipping. But now I will never need to buy speakers again.

I'm spoiled from finding a pair of speakers that sound good to my ears. I know there are better, but my ears are happy, so I'm happy. Also, I read the test reviews back in the day, and I know how respected these units were in car audio circles. Hard to find them today.



_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 280k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ RIV IS FOR SALE! ^^^

'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'95 Celica • 150k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:01 am

Heh, my friend has a pair of JMlab Utopias with focal drivers. Made of paper. The tweeters are a $2,000 set of beryllium tweeters. They sound amazing, but I'd never pay upwards of 10 grand for some speakers. Actually, I love Kevlar drivers and silk dome tweeters. Great combo in my book. My alpine type-e 12's are Kevlar reinforced pulp cones. They are clear and hit pretty hard for 250 watt drivers. Makes the Buick rattle turned up.

When people get in my car and say it'd the best sound system they've heard, I tell them that this is garbage compared to some of the stuff I've heard, and that these subs sound like shit compared to my old Velodyne ULD18 when the servo worked. That sub was made in 1989. Best sounding sub I ever heard.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 6.5'' MB Quart in doors   Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:05 pm

I have Alpine 6x9 S-series in the rear. IMHO the S-series is good enough for the rear deck since I am only using it for fill in sound.
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