Riv Performance
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

The 8th Gen Riviera Resource
 
HomeDashboardLatest imagesSearchRiviera Questions & AnswersWrite-Ups IndexRegisterRelated LinksLog in

 

 NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)

Go down 
+3
deekster_caddy
ibmoses
Natesriv
7 posters
AuthorMessage
Natesriv
Addict
Natesriv


Name : Nate
Age : 54
Location : KCMO
Joined : 2007-01-18
Post Count : 509
Merit : 16

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptySat Jan 24, 2009 6:45 pm

Okay, finally got around to installing the ebtcm (electronic brake traction control motor) I bought off the boards here.

Went to my Meineke (the one by my house is awesome!!), and had them install it. I'm no pro, and I don't want to mess with brake lines.....

They put it in and gave me the old one. Now, a little back story here. I got a replacement ebtcm here off the boards for a great price. Since I have an engineering degree I'm naturally curious as to how stuff works. So I took it apart and looked at the innards.... very complex but clean...put it back together and put it aside for another day to have it installed.

That day was this weekend, took it to Meineke and had them install it. They gave me back my old unit.

So I figured, "why not take this one apart and see its innards???...."

So I did

this is what i discovered!!!

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Standard
The ebtcm is a motor on top of an ABS unit I believe. You have to remove some star bolts on the bottom and the motor detaches from the abs module. this also allows you to get into the abs module...this is what I saw. No evidence of brake fluid (which should be!!!) AND a crusty smelly residue on the internals

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Standard
This is the inside of the bottom plate of the abs unit. Ideally, it SHOULD NOT be blackened like it is....and it smells like burnt hair!!!! I can only deduce that the fluid level dropped in here and something fried!!! It's very crusty and dry!

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Standard
Another view, notice around the edge of each cylinder (what they are, I don't know) is a dry crusty flake of something. Does brake fluid crust?? I don't even know what this junk is!!!!

So, like I said, ebtcm smells like burnt hair, on the inside, it's full of crusty residue...so I can't imagine how it would done it....but it's NASTY!!!

The replacement unit I bought is much cleaner, no smoked residue or burnt our cyinders.

So, if your traction light is on, or your abs light is one...here's where to start looking. BTW, new, is $1100!!!!


Last edited by Natesriv on Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
ibmoses
Aficionado
ibmoses


Name : Bert
Location : North Alabama
Joined : 2008-02-03
Post Count : 1701
Merit : 32

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptySat Jan 24, 2009 7:01 pm

Your right, no wonder it was not working.

Good job.

Bert tavis
Back to top Go down
deekster_caddy
Master



Name : Derek
Age : 52
Location : Reading, MA
Joined : 2007-01-31
Post Count : 7717
Merit : 109

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptySat Jan 24, 2009 8:35 pm

Wow, that's nasty gross inside!
Back to top Go down
albertj
Master
albertj


Name :
Location : Finger Lakes of New York State
Joined : 2007-05-31
Post Count : 8576
Merit : 180

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptySat Jan 24, 2009 8:45 pm

To those of you reading this: this is why some folks recommend you change the brake fluid from time to time. Reason: brake fluid holds water. Lots of water.

But there's good news too, DOT 3 brake fluid is set up so that it turns dark when it's "wet"

SO if your brake fluid is dark, you really should get it changed before the trapped water in the fluid messes stuff up. As a rule of thumb, that'd be every couple years. For me, it's when the fluid is dark like light soy sauce. Which seems to be every couple years... Also, I use a DOT 3/4 synthetic fluid, but that's another story.

It would even be helpful to just drain the fluid from the reservoir and pour in fresh fluid if you don't have the time/$ right this minute to take it to a garage to be flushed.

The Riv's ABS, in order to replace all the fluid, requires a Tech II to run the ABS motor through a cleaning cycle. However if you use one of the air-charged pressure bleeders and you don't use more than 15 or so PSI pressure, following the directions you can change the fluid no problem. To find out more do a Google search, "How to change brake fluid." You will see articles like this:

http://www.trustmymechanic.com/brake_fluid_change.htm

If you look at "how to build a power bleeder" you will find articles like this:

http://p-car.com/diy/bleeder/

which is conceptually OK but the guy used the wrong kind of bottle. He thinks the pressure did it in but really I think the materials (nalgene) are incompatible with brake fluid and it is no surprise that it shattered. HOWEVER - a home garden sprayer would work fine as long as you don't pump the pressure so that the fluid aerates. If you search this Editboard you should find instructions I posted some time ago. I did not post pictures because I do not have a picture account anywhere. If you prefer to use shop air instead of a garden sprayer, you could probably use a radiator overflow bottle from the pick-and-pull - find one that has a flat bottom that you can make sit in the engine bay or on the ground. If you do it the way I did it, the bottle it needs to sit on the ground to siphon excess fluid back out as you finish the fluid replacement by releasing the pressure from the bottle.

Hope this helps

Albertj
Back to top Go down
Natesriv
Addict
Natesriv


Name : Nate
Age : 54
Location : KCMO
Joined : 2007-01-18
Post Count : 509
Merit : 16

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptySat Jan 24, 2009 10:15 pm

The fluid coming out of the ebtcm was almost soy sauce black. however, I can't explain the crusty residue as just water...something fried.

But I must agree and stress to change your brake fluid every 2 to 3 years.... cheap PM will mean less $$ down the road!!
Back to top Go down
TType_Riviera
Fanatic
TType_Riviera


Name : Rob
Age : 41
Location : ohio
Joined : 2007-03-05
Post Count : 422
Merit : 0

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptySun Jan 25, 2009 12:43 am

In theory you should change your brake fluid every 30k...
Back to top Go down
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2131502/1
Natesriv
Addict
Natesriv


Name : Nate
Age : 54
Location : KCMO
Joined : 2007-01-18
Post Count : 509
Merit : 16

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptyMon Jan 26, 2009 8:23 am

Looking again at the box, it appears brake fluid never actually surrounded those cylinders.... notice the metal around the cylinders isn't stained by the fluid (it's aluminum, the bottom plate steel)...

So how did they rust/fry???

Mysteries!!
Back to top Go down
AA
Administrator
AA


Name : Aaron
Age : 46
Location : C-bus, Ohio
Joined : 2007-01-13
Post Count : 18448
Merit : 251

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptyMon Jan 26, 2009 9:12 am

Nate, thanks for sharing. I always wondered what it looked like in there!

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
Back to top Go down
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
albertj
Master
albertj


Name :
Location : Finger Lakes of New York State
Joined : 2007-05-31
Post Count : 8576
Merit : 180

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptyMon Jan 26, 2009 12:14 pm

Nate, they would have got rusty from water in the brake fluid. I am pretty sure that metal will not take on a stain from brake fluid.

There is a nice write up on brake fluids here:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=103862

Background and highlights:

Brake fluid basically is ethylene glycols (similar to anti-freeze) and butyl esters. DOT-4 fluids have borate esters in addition to the butyl esters to increase the boiling point -- they ALSO will take on water faster than DOT-3 fluids will.

Water in an auto braking system comes in thru vents (each and every time you open the master cylinder for instance) and by vapor passing seals. This ingress of water can not be helped - so brake fluid is formulated to absorb water. Think of it this way - antifreeze (which by the way contains similar glycols) mixes with water. So does brake fluid.

Comment: I almost wonder if a previous owner was using DOT-5 silicone fluid in Nate's Riv. Water does not mix with it, the water would settle somewhere in the sysem and cause problems.

Albertj
Back to top Go down
turtleman
Expert
turtleman


Name : Codith
Age : 36
Location : Villa Park, IL
Joined : 2007-02-08
Post Count : 3671
Merit : 140

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptyMon Jan 26, 2009 12:37 pm

That thing looks like the cylinder head off my motorcycle minus the cams

If that was bone dry I would think that crust has to be corrosion, like an engine block rusts when sitting around dry, just different metal, fluids, exposure, etc. That's pretty wild though. Definitely makes me want to go flush my brake fluid
Back to top Go down
Natesriv
Addict
Natesriv


Name : Nate
Age : 54
Location : KCMO
Joined : 2007-01-18
Post Count : 509
Merit : 16

NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) EmptyThu Jan 29, 2009 1:51 pm

I think something leaked in there, or moisture got in, but that cavity never was designed to hold flud from what I can see. Those are the bottom of the cylinders...

But some H20 got in there, enough to rust the heck out of the cylinders and the bottom steel plate!

My "new" unit works like a charm!!!!
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content





NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty
PostSubject: Re: NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)   NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!) Empty

Back to top Go down
 
NO WONDER I HAD NO ABS AND TRACTION CONTROL!!!!!! (PICS!!!)
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Traction Control
» Traction Control Keeps going off
» Traction Control???
» FAQ: Anti-Lock Brakes and/or Traction Control Light/Lamp On
» something with traction control

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Riv Performance ::   General Tech :: Care & Maintenance-
Jump to: