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Abaddon
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Abaddon


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tortuga - Page 29 Empty
PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyTue Jun 16, 2015 8:38 am

If it ain't one thing.....
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Karma
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyTue Jun 16, 2015 9:19 am

What normally keeps a valve stem seal down? Are they shaped to climb in one direction? Can they be upside down?

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AA
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyTue Jun 16, 2015 9:27 am

Looks like some detonation chipped that piston land. Don't know what else would cause that.

_________________
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'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
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Abaddon
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Abaddon


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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyTue Jun 16, 2015 9:56 am

AA wrote:
Looks like some detonation chipped that piston land. Don't know what else would cause that.

Nevermind the extreme amount of pressures that the piston normally undergoes inside turtles engine. It is plausible that the piston just got weak and broke. The over-rev(s) that he did that day could've just been the straw that broke its back.

Karma wrote:
What normally keeps a valve stem seal down? Are they shaped to climb in one direction? Can they be upside down?

There are little spring retainers around the seal itself. Actually more like spring bands. The top of the "hat" that it goes over is flared (sorta), and the seal snaps over top of it. Impossible to install upside down. They're like little cups.
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyTue Jun 16, 2015 2:25 pm

I'd take it to Bill in Detroit and pay $1k for a brand new rebuild so clean you can eat off it.

lil bit farther of a drive for you but... just an idea..
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyThu Jun 18, 2015 2:53 pm

disassembling and cleaning heads

tortuga - Page 29 20150618_130416
this is cyl.1 exhaust where the most damage would be. After cleaning up the chamber area, you see whats really up. This is probably salvageable. As long as the valve will seat and seal, it should be fine.

Here's the other problem that I didn't know about that will pretty much put the nail in the coffin on destroying my plan of finishing this by this weekend.

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spring fell off and the bottom mushroomed pretty good
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you can see how the viton is all chewed up

The seals aren't just coming off. The exhaust ones are getting beat up by the retainer. Opel engineering didn't machine the top of the valve guides with enough clearance for my lift. I could have sworn I told them I needed .600". I'll go ahead and assume that is the entire reason they're coming off their seats this time. What really sucks is that fixing this would conventionally require me to take the heads back there or somewhere to get professionally re-machined for the clearance I need for the existing lift much less the increased lift I was planning on now with the 1.7 rockers. James suggested I just grind them down about .100 by hand which I may well do. I still need new seals and still have ton of work ahead of me cleaning these heads and everything else.
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 11:03 pm

James and I are gonna try to figure out a way to fix this. Hopefully I can get him over here sunday. Thing is since it's all exhaust seals that are coming up off the guides and getting beat up, my first thought was the clearance is inadequate since the ones with the higher valve lift are the problematic ones. All the intakes are fine. So I took my digital caliper and checked the actual distance from the lowest point of the valvespring retainer set on the stem with the keepers in place and the guide (without the spring). The distance there with the valve closed is about 1.040" which is more than enough even when you add the thickness of any kind of valve stem seal. So now we're kinda thinkin that the seals just aren't staying on and then when they come off they are getting damaged by being slammed up and down and whatnot instead of the other way around. The question is why aren't they staying on? why only the exhausts? Why am I the first person I know about to have this problem when plenty of heads are built with smooth bronze guides and standard fitment seals. James suggested the really smooth OD bronze guides compared to the rough-machined stock guides which we can address by manually barbing/grooving the OD of the guides to bite and hold onto the seals. It's not even totally crazy to add a little tiny ring of rtv there either. That's all well and fine as long as that's the only trouble.
I should have called Opel before the weekend but I wanted to get the heads all disassembled first so I can see everything and have the whole picture to tell them.
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptySun Jun 21, 2015 12:37 am

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new radiator - at least something is getting put in the car now - a step in the right direction

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flushing the heater core out because I'm switching to green coolant

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lots of tiny chunks of this came out of it - i'm pretty sure it's the disintegrated restrictor valve thing that's inserted in the heater elbow coming out of the tensioner assembly. I'd bet money almost everyone with some miles on their riv has some of that in their heater core.

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heads taking a bath?

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Cleaning those damn valves took me like all day between two days because my hands hurt so much.
That was not really part of the original plan. I was gonna swap over the 150# springs, the 1.7 roller rockers and the 3/8 pushrods and leave the heads as is otherwise. Although they were dirty enough that I would have been dying to clean them still.

tortuga - Page 29 20150620_205536
The seals, by the way, are just a little bit larger on my opel-rebuilt heads ~.529" instead of ~.506" for the stock guide OD. They made the new guides and therefore picked the size for that and correspondingly, the seals. So I can't use the metal-shelled 3800 seals on these heads basically. The seal design in the middle (although its technically sized the same as the other stock size 3800 seal) of the pic can be forced on without exuberant effort but I assume that's not a good idea. I dunno.
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyMon Jun 22, 2015 12:39 am

tortuga - Page 29 IMG_20150621_130635
I'm still working on cleaning the heads. That pneumatic die grinder with the little stainless wirebrush on it is worthless on all the hard carbon deposits. All it does is polish the carbon up smooth. I can get like 85-90% of it inside all the ports with that tougher wire wheel on the electric drill but it's work. Thing that really sucks is it'll just be caked with carbon again in a couple thousand miles.

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Some of the more subtle mods
James modified the windage tray gasket back when we built the L26 motor for better oil management. This time around we did that again and also did his weld-in plate around the oil pickup tube. I'll try not to dent in the oil pan again. lol

tortuga - Page 29 IMG_20150621_231126
got the IS3 cam and timing set transferred to the new motor, anti-vaj rumbler shaft deleted, ready to have the covers put on and then heads once I get those all sorted out.
In the meantime, pray for good riding weather this week for me please!
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyMon Jun 22, 2015 4:22 pm

Well Cody, I sure hope your skies aren't covered in blackness like ours are right now. We're gonna get hammered in about 20 minutes....nvm. Right now lol. The skies are alive and BOOMING
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyMon Jun 22, 2015 4:26 pm

Yep, same here. I love working in the garage while it rains. As long as the lights dont go out!
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyMon Jun 22, 2015 5:23 pm

+1 On the rain thing, even if the power goes out.
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turtleman
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turtleman


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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyThu Jun 25, 2015 1:57 am

Opel engineering didn't have any solution I was happy with to stop the seals from coming off. Ted told me that that just roughing up the guide surface where the seal fits onto so it's not smooth helps a lot but I wanted to do something kinda more certain so I pulled a special tool out of my ass. I guess my profession really paid off on this one. haha

So here's the explanation of the tool I made..

tortuga - Page 29 20150624_111019
That's just a 5/16 socket head cap screw that will serve as the pilot for the tool

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thrust bearing

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tool arm holder

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another thrust bearing and nut so that it's solidly held to the right depth but can still spin on the pilot

tortuga - Page 29 20150624_111204
the tool arm
I cut a simple form tool to make the barb groove in the valve guide. The tool arm lets you set final cut depth of the form tool to whatever you want and then tighten with the set screw. Clearance between the guide and the cylinder head casting limits how much can stick out though.

tortuga - Page 29 20150624_111808
the aluminum arm there is just a lever to walk the tool around by hand
not in view of the picture is a spring and screw holding the tool arm to the holder so that it can kinda feed its self in automatically. That worked alright but you still have to fuss with it a little. It likes to deflect and then suddenly plunge in. It's not a big deal since the groove depth is shallow and the guide is an easy to machine material.

tortuga - Page 29 20150624_111803
If the form tool depth is preset right, you just keep going until there's no gap between the holder and the arm and done.

tortuga - Page 29 20150624_113743
that's finished. There's the original chamfer they machined on all the guides for lead-in and then right underneath is the next step for a barb. The extra mark on that original lead-in chamfer is from getting hit by the seal after it came off.

tortuga - Page 29 Th_20150624_112325
in action

tortuga - Page 29 20150624_114401
This was my test. I installed an old seal. It went on just as easily as any and was more difficult to get off than before. Obviously the barb shaved up the seal from taking it off. It seems to be doing it's job. In addition to the barb itself keeping the seal down, I can safely put a little bit of rtv under the barb to help glue it on and I don't have to worry about any getting squeezed up towards the valve stem area.

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Karma
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyThu Jun 25, 2015 9:26 am

oooo! Custom, high precision, purpose built, fancy! I love it! Should do the trick!

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flyineagle96
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyFri Jun 26, 2015 2:40 pm

Karma wrote:
oooo! Custom, high precision, purpose built, fancy!  I love it! Should do the trick!
Say prayers!!!
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptySun Jul 19, 2015 12:47 pm

some more stuffs for show and tell

tortuga - Page 29 20150702_113311
Since I went pretty hard cleaning everything with the various steel wirebrushes I figured it'd be appropriate to lap the valves to get a nicer sealing surface there and also check the pattern and stuff for reference.

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James decided to come over last weekend and join my misery and good thing too because he had a valve seal protection tool - a mcdonalds straw. This just keeps the lip of the seal from getting chafed by the keeper groove as it slides onto the valve.

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tortuga - Page 29 20150630_204112
I made up a simple tool to seat the seals. Actually these pictures are before I drilled the deep hole for the valve stem to run into but you get the idea. Not really something that's normally critical but with my barbs I wanted to make sure they go on perfectly square and whatnot because any off-ward motion will tear of the seal. worked like butter

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installed a sensor for post-intercooled intake temp which will provide some great data I think. It'd be nice to have pre-IC as well but that would require a much smaller thermocouple style sensor and driver for that and whatnot. Maybe in the future. I was thinkin about something along the lines of taking another one of those 3/8npt IAT sensors like what i put in my lower intake and just making a smaller two-piece 1/16npt housing for it to fit at the discharge of the blower. It'd be about the size of a nitrous nozzel. The main issue that worries me is the temps exiting the blower under boost are higher than the charted working range of those IATs so I dunno.
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Karma
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyMon Jul 20, 2015 9:34 am

turtleman wrote:

James decided to come over last weekend and join my misery and good thing too because he had a valve seal protection tool - a mcdonalds straw. This just keeps the lip of the seal from getting chafed by the keeper groove as it slides onto the valve.


That is actually really clever!


turtleman wrote:

tortuga - Page 29 20150701_110701

Agh! the tap threads! (I know its the only way to really get in there..)

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Sir Psycho Sexy
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyWed Jul 22, 2015 10:54 am

You gonna eat that banana?
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyWed Jul 22, 2015 11:12 am

I saw an article about people eating the peels. WTF is with that?

Cody, where can I find your coverage on your vacuum actuated cutout on the forum? Thank you
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyMon Jul 27, 2015 1:29 am

charlieRobinson wrote:
Cody, where can I find your coverage on your vacuum actuated cutout on the forum? Thank you

I'm pretty sure all I posted about it is on page44 of the this thread from when I replaced the headers and stuff.
It's boost actuated btw. I didn't post about it (I don't think) but I also set up a control valve (using an extra boost bypass control solenoid off a blower) to allow or prevent the cutout from working. It'd incredibly loud and I don't necessarily want that every time I go into 6-7+psi boost.

Once I have the tortuga running again I can take a video or something for you. I don't think really got to that because I kinda had the cutout off and on figuring out other stuff and whatnot.
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyMon Aug 17, 2015 1:21 pm

Got the car officially up an running again a couple weeks ago before my sisters big wedding. Last week I took care of little odds and ends. Initially I had a small vacuum leak that was just local damage on one of the silicone sheet blower gaskets. I just rtv'd it. I damaged it from scraping all the old rtv off that I put on during the first re-install (I had a vac leak that was found elsewhere and chose to rtv the gaskets to make sure it wasn't them since it was kind of experimental and I didn't trust them right away). If I hadn't rtv'd them in the first place, it would have been gravy. I highly recommend cutting your own silicone gaskets particularly if you are running an intercooler. I also had a tiny leak from the reused thermostat seal - replaced the seal. That's about it. I let the smoke from the wrapped/seal coated headers burn off before putting the hood back on. The accessory belt squealing is gone! Oh my god! It's gone! My s/c belt tensioner is getting worse allthewhile. I have one or two pulley shims on it right now because it's cocked out from the force of the belt and makes it want to ride on the outside of the pulley. Need to come up with a solution to that bugger. A lower mile/new replacement would obviously be good but I would like to come up with a more positive fix and get more tension at the same time. James & I will have to work on that.

So now, I'll be slowly working on tuning it again. I have a fresh o2 sensor and presumably good wideband. I am not really planning on going to the track this year because I want to catch up financially and handle other things and I'll need to buy a new set of tires too but who knows.
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matt270avian
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyMon Aug 17, 2015 3:19 pm

And he didn't even post pictures....
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyMon Aug 17, 2015 4:15 pm

matt270avian wrote:
And he didn't even post pictures....

It's a Riv...with an engine...and it runs...again. Did that paint a picture for you? Oh, and it's GREEN!!!!

popcorn
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyTue Aug 18, 2015 4:41 am

time for some geeking out

tortuga - Page 29 Cutout%20comparison%20graph

It's not quality data yet (lousy 5 frames/sec during this scan) but the trend I was looking for seems to be there. I just did some pulls on the highway real quick to compare maf vs rpm at WOT with the cutout closed & open. It looks like the motor flows quite a bit more with the exhaust un-corked and this is only with a 3.2 pulley

tortuga - Page 29 Cutout%20comparison%20graph%20map
boost vs rpm tells the same story
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charlieRobinson
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PostSubject: Re: tortuga   tortuga - Page 29 EmptyTue Aug 18, 2015 9:49 am

please post more info on the cutout. im trying to get these gains too
bow
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