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 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START

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AA
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:24 pm

The rail should hold pressure after the pump primes. Mine usually remembers near the exact pressure for many hours after being turned off. You have a mechanical gauge attached to the schrader valve, correct?

I don't know if this fuel issue is the cause of your problem, but it should not read zero PSI. Somehow the fuel is leaking out somewhere, either through an injector, the fuel pump, or maybe the regulator. Do you smell gas?

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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:43 pm

He still can only get the engine to run by spraying brake clean into the LIM.
So I would say first order of priority is to get it to run on it's own then address the internal fuel leak issue.
I believe these are two separate issues.

Mine will not hold pressure overnight but starts right up in the morning without having to prime it, so i haven't bothered to look for the problem, if there is one. The normal operation of the pump to run for two seconds with the key in the ON position is enough to start my car.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:47 pm

I dont think it would leak out of an injector that fast. I never smell gas. Like I said, car has always done it, which is why I got it for 800 dollars. I NEED this thing to run!!! How would VATS effect the way it runs? I have a clean key and no security light is on when running. I think some wire somwehere got wet, or else my fuel pump is dying. I want to pinpoint the problem as I do not have tons of money to throw away on things that won't help. This is about the most frustrating car problem I've had!
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:49 pm

Have you given any thought to buying the subscription to All Data on line for less than $20.00 per year of access.
This is the same software most independent shops use. The only difference is you are purchasing the tech data for your car only, 1996 Riviera.


Last edited by Rickw on Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:52 pm

Yes Rick I believe I have 2 seperate problems, and I would like to get the car running before I worry about the fuel leak. It ran just fine before I went through the water and it's had the leak since I got it. I do not have a FSM, could anyone post the troubleshooting info? I have a test light and multimeter just don't know where to start.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:57 pm

For I believe $16.96 you can get all the technical data you need right now and have it for future needs as well.
I've used All Data in the past and is a very good replacement for the FSM.
You can download and print anything you need and not worry about getting the "book" dirty. You will have access to wiring diagrams and service bulletins also.
Very much worth the money and your time right now. You could have the car diagnosed and fixed today.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:01 pm

I just looked at the website. $27 a year, not bad! And you say this is the next best thing to the FSM? I'm sold.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:42 pm

Ok. Alldata has not quite helped me. They talk about using a scan tool to command the fuel relay to on, and using fuel pipe shut off adapters to block the return line. I have none of these tools.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:01 pm

A couple weeks ago during some similar troubleshooting I had a reason to jump my fuel pump relay. It was under the back seat, and after reading the numbers and schematic on the relay I jumped two of the sockets out and the fuel pump runs. I don't recall exactly which wires they were, but you can just bypass the relay this way if you want to just leave the fuel pump running. Other than draining your battery and eventually wearing out the fuel pump you aren't harming anything.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:06 pm

After the car ahs sat a while (overnight) open the trunk and go back to the driver's side fo the car. Roll down teh window so youcan turn the key on and off without getting in. With car in park and brake set, turn key to on (NOT to START) position. You should hear a faint but steady wirring noise fromt eh trunk. That is the fuel pump doing the initial 'start' charge of the fuel rail.

If you don't hear the whirr, or if it warbles instead of humming steadily, chances are the fuel pump is going bad.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:27 pm

Since you only have 2 seconds, set by a timer, for fuel pump to run after key is turned on - you might try opening the gas cap and turning key then quickly put your ear to the filler neck or have someone else turn the key.
But you know the pump is priming the system based on your fuel pressure gauge readings.
For troubleshooting purposes (doesn't matter if it's AllData or FSM it will tell you to command pump on with Tech 2 or similar tool) You need to do as Derek said and jump two wires on the relay to make pump run continuously for troubleshooting purpose. That's where the wiring diagram, that you now have access to, will come in handy. Then continue on with the fuel pressure troubleshooting guide.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:32 am

I did as alldata said and blocked off the return line. Fuel pressure got up to about 60psi but still would drop back to 0 when the pump turned off. I tried cranking the engine and the pressure stayed at 60 while it was cranking and it would not start up. According to my symptoms alldata says I need a new regulator.. I still think it may have to do with going through the water or maybe I got bad gas?? Because 60psi is more than enough to run the car. I was lookin around under the car yesterday and noticed a rubber nipple type thing coming out of the firewall on the passenger side and it looked wet at the end. I reached up and bumped it and it came out of the firewall and about a gallon of water started pouring out of the hole. Maybe water got into the pcm? Either way it's almost been a month, I REALLY REALLY don't want to bring it to a shop but it's starting to look like I may have to.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:57 am

steve96 wrote:
I did as alldata said and blocked off the return line. Fuel pressure got up to about 60psi but still would drop back to 0 when the pump turned off. I tried cranking the engine and the pressure stayed at 60 while it was cranking and it would not start up. According to my symptoms alldata says I need a new regulator.. I still think it may have to do with going through the water or maybe I got bad gas?? Because 60psi is more than enough to run the car. I was lookin around under the car yesterday and noticed a rubber nipple type thing coming out of the firewall on the passenger side and it looked wet at the end. I reached up and bumped it and it came out of the firewall and about a gallon of water started pouring out of the hole. Maybe water got into the pcm? Either way it's almost been a month, I REALLY REALLY don't want to bring it to a shop but it's starting to look like I may have to.

you found the A/C condenser drain! I wonder if they are all plugged?!

Do you have fuel pressure while the car is cranking?
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:26 am

Steve - please be sure to clean out and re-install that nipple. It helps keep fumes and stuff out while also draining the water from your AC evaporator such that it's much, much less likely to cause rust.

As for the effect on the PCM - I do not think the interior air-box communicates (shares space with) the PCM, but I also don't know what the operating limits for humidity for a PCM are nor do I know if your car interior has sat saturated (very humid) for a long time.

Do you think your PCM got wet?

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:51 am

steve96 wrote:
I did as alldata said and blocked off the return line. Fuel pressure got up to about 60psi but still would drop back to 0 when the pump turned off. I tried cranking the engine and the pressure stayed at 60 while it was cranking and it would not start up. According to my symptoms alldata says I need a new regulator.. I still think it may have to do with going through the water or maybe I got bad gas?? Because 60psi is more than enough to run the car. I was lookin around under the car yesterday and noticed a rubber nipple type thing coming out of the firewall on the passenger side and it looked wet at the end. I reached up and bumped it and it came out of the firewall and about a gallon of water started pouring out of the hole. Maybe water got into the pcm? Either way it's almost been a month, I REALLY REALLY don't want to bring it to a shop but it's starting to look like I may have to.
The manual will tell you to relace your FPR at this time based on the fact that your pressure is dropping to Zero. But your engine should be starting based on the fact that your getting 60 psi while cranking. The FPR can be and probably is bad but the engine will still run with the type of failure your FPR is exhibiting.
( I have the same problem, where my fuel pressure will not hold after turning car off, yet it still starts and runs fine.)
We just went through the exact same scenario on Deekster's Riv but found that he had inadvertently put a bunch of bad gasoline in his tank. He was able to identify the bad gas by taking a sample from the fuel rail via a purge hose on his fuel pressure gauge. He had taken the fuel out of a wrecked Pontiac he had laying around and put it in the Riviera. I doubt you could get a bad enough load of fuel from a gas station to cause this problem, but anything is possible. His car acted exactly like yours. Would only run on brake clean yet was getting fuel and spark.
One last thing to do is to remove the fuel rail completely from the intake with the fuel injectors still attached to the rail, and have someone crank the engine and make sure your getting fuel spray from all injectors. This is just to verify what all your readings are telling you. That you are getting fuel to the engine. And after reinstalling the fuel rail, double check your spark at the plugs, If you can get a sample of the fuel in a small glass container that would be good to analyze the quality of the gas. If it is milky color and not clear then you know you have bad gas that has to come out of the tank.
I believe Derek used the cars fuel pump to pump the old fuel out by bypassing the relay we spoke of earlier. If you do end up pumping all your fuel out be careful how long you run the cars fuel pump. run it for 2-3 minute bursts especially as the fuel level gets very low. The pump relies on fuel to cool and lubricate it.
By this time you may want to put a battery charger on the battery and bring it up to top charge at a 2 amp rate.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:15 pm

I bought a 100ml glass vile today for 3 bucks. I put some gas from my tank in it and it looked cloudy and kinda watery/slimy at the bottom. When I dumped it out it left a fog on the glass so I wiped the vile out and put in some gas from the van for my lawn mower. That gas was clear like water and did not leave a fog on the glass. So now I'm going to drain the tank and put in some gas that is NOT from holiday. Ill let you all know how it goes.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:46 pm

steve96 wrote:
put in some gas that is NOT from holiday. Ill let you all know how it goes.
What do you mean by holiday. Is that the name of a Gas Station or did you mean when you went on holiday.?
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:52 pm

Holiday is a popular gas station chain here in Minnesota. I've heard of other people getting bad gas from them in the past. I'm going to get some gas from the Mobil station down the street and are what happens.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:56 pm

How much gas is in your car now.? Are you going to be able to pump the crap out of it or are you going to try and dilute the bad with good gas.?
I would recommend pumping the old out and getting rid of it.
Also, after you do get it running again you should replace the fuel filter as soon as you can. That probably has a bunch of crap in it.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:58 pm

I have about half a tank, I have 2 empty 5 gallon has cans that I'm gonna pump it into by jumping the relay. And then I'm going to be sure the gas coming out of the line is clean before reconnecting it.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:02 pm

Steve, Where are you at in MN?
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:15 pm

St Louis Park, you?
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:45 pm

I pumped it out through a fuel pressure gauge that screwed onto the fuel rail, and I unscrewed the gauge from the other end of it, screwed on a hose fitting and got it all out that way.

We were going nuts trying to figure all this out.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:50 pm

How did the fuel look when you were done? Clear like water? I pretty much did the same thing you did. My gas looks better but is still a little dirty. I even added 2 addditional gallons to flush everything through and the car won't start. Starting to think it hates me.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 Riv has fuel pressure and spark but WONT START   Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:58 pm

Minnetonka
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