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 P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??

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96Super
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PostSubject: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:37 pm

So, after doing some major work to my car. Including: Crank and bearings, oil pump, water pump, lower intake ect ect., my check engine light and "traction control off" came on. Just to make sure it was not just a fluke, I used my OBD2 reader to check and reset the codes, after resetting, both lights turn off at the same time, then both turn back on at the same time when I start the car.


So...I used a multimeter to test the voltage on the MAF since it was the easiest to get to, from left to right- 0V +, -, 12V+. The first one (Yellow) should read 5V. My list says to look for shorts, ect, after nothing is found, the next step is "Replace the PCM."

Looking at the diagram of the PCM, I have noticed that all of the sensors above MAF, Traction Control, Cam Pos Sensor, and TPS are all controled on the blue connector of the PCM, so...

My question is, if I go find a used PCM at the junk yard, what other cars and years are compatible as a replacement? I was BSing with a friend that is a motorcycle mechanic at Honda told me a fun fact that the PCM for the Goldwing is the same for the Honda Civic car also LOL. I know Buick doesn't make bikes, but was wondering if I maybe found a Pontiac if the PCM would be the same....
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:33 pm

no, you need a pcm from a 96 riv. that is the only car i know of that has the L67 engine and vacuum controlled 4t60e trans.

edit: however, if you find a pcm with the same pin outs as the 96.(the right harness for the trans) then you can always reprogram it with a bin from a 96 if you have a powertuner.

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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:42 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
no, you need a pcm from a 96 riv. that is the only car i know of that has the L67 engine and vacuum controlled 4t60e trans.


Oh yeah, I forgot the tranny thing!! Well, luckily I found one on eBay, for 75 and they pre-program it to your VIN before they ship it out. So, I think I may as well get that, don't know what the dealer would charge to program the PCM to my car.


Thank you!!!

Hopefully this will fix it for good. Then the next thing on my list is Paint, and that wood kit on eBay for 200.


Last edited by 96Super on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:44 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding stuff.)
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:49 pm

There are a lot of cars you can get a PCM from but you then have to reprogram them. That is, you can't plug it in and make it work. Even if you get one out of another 96 Riv, it won't work unless you reflash it to have your Riv's VIN. That said, you can usually get those via EBay.

To see a list of the other cars you can get a PCM from go to RockAuto.Com and look up the PCM. Then hit the part number on the part description, it is a hyper link to a list of other cars that use the same PCM. Again, however, you have to reprogram it and if it's not a 96 Riv then you will need a Tech II (Dealer's scanner) to do the job. In reprogramming it you will give it your Riv's VIN and you can if you want reset various performance parameters.

After you reprogram it you have to install it in your car -- but it still will not run right because you then have to run a CASE (crank angle) learn procedure. Easiest way is to use a Tech II but can also be done with HP Tuners VCM software on a laptop with a data link to the OBD port. However - I don't know if HP Tuners offers a dongle that works with the port on the '96, you'll have to ask them.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:23 am

albertj wrote:
There are a lot of cars you can get a PCM from but you then have to reprogram them. That is, you can't plug it in and make it work. Even if you get one out of another 96 Riv, it won't work unless you reflash it to have your Riv's VIN. That said, you can usually get those via EBay.

To see a list of the other cars you can get a PCM from go to RockAuto.Com and look up the PCM. Then hit the part number on the part description, it is a hyper link to a list of other cars that use the same PCM. Again, however, you have to reprogram it and if it's not a 96 Riv then you will need a Tech II (Dealer's scanner) to do the job. In reprogramming it you will give it your Riv's VIN and you can if you want reset various performance parameters.

After you reprogram it you have to install it in your car -- but it still will not run right because you then have to run a CASE (crank angle) learn procedure. Easiest way is to use a Tech II but can also be done with HP Tuners VCM software on a laptop with a data link to the OBD port. However - I don't know if HP Tuners offers a dongle that works with the port on the '96, you'll have to ask them.

Albertj

So even if I get the one from eBay, and it comes pre-programed to my car, I still need to have programing done? Does anyone know about how much the dealer would charge for this if I brought in my own ECM?
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:19 am

Have you double checked your engine wiring harness? Sounds to me like you've got a major connection point that's loose, or maybe a bad ground.
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:28 pm

96Super wrote:
albertj wrote:
There are a lot of cars you can get a PCM from but you then have to reprogram them. That is, you can't plug it in and make it work. Even if you get one out of another 96 Riv, it won't work unless you reflash it to have your Riv's VIN. That said, you can usually get those via EBay.

To see a list of the other cars you can get a PCM from go to RockAuto.Com and look up the PCM. Then hit the part number on the part description, it is a hyper link to a list of other cars that use the same PCM. Again, however, you have to reprogram it and if it's not a 96 Riv then you will need a Tech II (Dealer's scanner) to do the job. In reprogramming it you will give it your Riv's VIN and you can if you want reset various performance parameters.

After you reprogram it you have to install it in your car -- but it still will not run right because you then have to run a CASE (crank angle) learn procedure. Easiest way is to use a Tech II but can also be done with HP Tuners VCM software on a laptop with a data link to the OBD port. However - I don't know if HP Tuners offers a dongle that works with the port on the '96, you'll have to ask them.

Albertj

So even if I get the one from eBay, and it comes pre-programed to my car, I still need to have programing done? Does anyone know about how much the dealer would charge for this if I brought in my own ECM?

In order for it to run 100% right you will need a CASE learn done.

The ebay seller may do a case learn on one or another vehicle before sending you the PCM, it still won't be right. But will be closer.

I theink the FSM outlines a procedure for doing a CASE learn without a TechII - don't have it handy so I can't tell you more.

I don't own HP Tuners software but I understand it lets you do a CASE Learn.

HTH.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:29 pm

deekster_caddy wrote:
Have you double checked your engine wiring harness? Sounds to me like you've got a major connection point that's loose, or maybe a bad ground.

I went through the harness good, and didn't see anything loose or ungrounded. And, if something was loose or disconnected I wouldn't get the 12v power and okay ground on the 2 power wires on the MAF but no power on the signal wire on the MAF. I think what I'll do next is go test the computer it self. I looked up the pin number and the yellow wire that should have 5v is in the blue connector and is pin number 54. If no power comes from there then I know for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:30 pm

albertj wrote:
96Super wrote:
albertj wrote:
There are a lot of cars you can get a PCM from but you then have to reprogram them. That is, you can't plug it in and make it work. Even if you get one out of another 96 Riv, it won't work unless you reflash it to have your Riv's VIN. That said, you can usually get those via EBay.

To see a list of the other cars you can get a PCM from go to RockAuto.Com and look up the PCM. Then hit the part number on the part description, it is a hyper link to a list of other cars that use the same PCM. Again, however, you have to reprogram it and if it's not a 96 Riv then you will need a Tech II (Dealer's scanner) to do the job. In reprogramming it you will give it your Riv's VIN and you can if you want reset various performance parameters.

After you reprogram it you have to install it in your car -- but it still will not run right because you then have to run a CASE (crank angle) learn procedure. Easiest way is to use a Tech II but can also be done with HP Tuners VCM software on a laptop with a data link to the OBD port. However - I don't know if HP Tuners offers a dongle that works with the port on the '96, you'll have to ask them.

Albertj

So even if I get the one from eBay, and it comes pre-programed to my car, I still need to have programing done? Does anyone know about how much the dealer would charge for this if I brought in my own ECM?

In order for it to run 100% right you will need a CASE learn done.

The ebay seller may do a case learn on one or another vehicle before sending you the PCM, it still won't be right. But will be closer.

I theink the FSM outlines a procedure for doing a CASE learn without a TechII - don't have it handy so I can't tell you more.

I don't own HP Tuners software but I understand it lets you do a CASE Learn.

HTH.

Albertj


Thanks all for taking the time to help.

Hmmmm... Maybe there is something in the repair manual from Buick..


Last edited by 96Super on Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:35 pm

albertj wrote:
96Super wrote:
albertj wrote:
There are a lot of cars you can get a PCM from but you then have to reprogram them. That is, you can't plug it in and make it work. Even if you get one out of another 96 Riv, it won't work unless you reflash it to have your Riv's VIN. That said, you can usually get those via EBay.

To see a list of the other cars you can get a PCM from go to RockAuto.Com and look up the PCM. Then hit the part number on the part description, it is a hyper link to a list of other cars that use the same PCM. Again, however, you have to reprogram it and if it's not a 96 Riv then you will need a Tech II (Dealer's scanner) to do the job. In reprogramming it you will give it your Riv's VIN and you can if you want reset various performance parameters.

After you reprogram it you have to install it in your car -- but it still will not run right because you then have to run a CASE (crank angle) learn procedure. Easiest way is to use a Tech II but can also be done with HP Tuners VCM software on a laptop with a data link to the OBD port. However - I don't know if HP Tuners offers a dongle that works with the port on the '96, you'll have to ask them.

Albertj

So even if I get the one from eBay, and it comes pre-programed to my car, I still need to have programing done? Does anyone know about how much the dealer would charge for this if I brought in my own ECM?

In order for it to run 100% right you will need a CASE learn done.

The ebay seller may do a case learn on one or another vehicle before sending you the PCM, it still won't be right. But will be closer.

I theink the FSM outlines a procedure for doing a CASE learn without a TechII - don't have it handy so I can't tell you more.

I don't own HP Tuners software but I understand it lets you do a CASE Learn.

HTH.

Albertj
Case Learn can be accomplished by most shops that have current diagnostic tools.It's a simple procedure that should not cost a lot for your local shop to do for you. Any shop that can change a crank sensor should be able to do a case learn with their equipment.
I did mine with a Snap-On diag tool.
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:13 pm

Rickw wrote:
albertj wrote:
96Super wrote:
albertj wrote:
There are a lot of cars you can get a PCM from but you then have to reprogram them. That is, you can't plug it in and make it work. Even if you get one out of another 96 Riv, it won't work unless you reflash it to have your Riv's VIN. That said, you can usually get those via EBay.

To see a list of the other cars you can get a PCM from go to RockAuto.Com and look up the PCM. Then hit the part number on the part description, it is a hyper link to a list of other cars that use the same PCM. Again, however, you have to reprogram it and if it's not a 96 Riv then you will need a Tech II (Dealer's scanner) to do the job. In reprogramming it you will give it your Riv's VIN and you can if you want reset various performance parameters.

After you reprogram it you have to install it in your car -- but it still will not run right because you then have to run a CASE (crank angle) learn procedure. Easiest way is to use a Tech II but can also be done with HP Tuners VCM software on a laptop with a data link to the OBD port. However - I don't know if HP Tuners offers a dongle that works with the port on the '96, you'll have to ask them.

Albertj

So even if I get the one from eBay, and it comes pre-programed to my car, I still need to have programing done? Does anyone know about how much the dealer would charge for this if I brought in my own ECM?

In order for it to run 100% right you will need a CASE learn done.

The ebay seller may do a case learn on one or another vehicle before sending you the PCM, it still won't be right. But will be closer.

I theink the FSM outlines a procedure for doing a CASE learn without a TechII - don't have it handy so I can't tell you more.

I don't own HP Tuners software but I understand it lets you do a CASE Learn.

HTH.

Albertj
Case Learn can be accomplished by most shops that have current diagnostic tools.It's a simple procedure that should not cost a lot for your local shop to do for you. Any shop that can change a crank sensor should be able to do a case learn with their equipment.
I did mine with a Snap-On diag tool.

Sweet!! How long does it take? maybe under 1 hour?
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:18 pm

it takes about 30 seconds to do a CASE learn.

Albert, when you have a chance, would you mind looking into doing a case learn without a tech 2? I've been needing one for a while now. i've tried it with a DHP, but for some reason we couldnt get it to work. The local buick shop wanted to charge me $90 to do it...i told them to kiss my grits.

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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:35 pm

So that means if you ever change your crank sensor, you need to run the CASE learn too right?
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:46 pm

you are "supposed" to do a CASE learn whenever you replace the pcm or remove the crank sensor. most people dont get it done unless they get a code for it, or they have problems.

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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:06 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
you are "supposed" to do a CASE learn whenever you replace the pcm or remove the crank sensor. most people dont get it done unless they get a code for it, or they have problems.

Oh wow, I did not know that. I removed the crank sensor to do the oil pump. I never realized these engines were so technical. I've worked on many cars and a couple with the 3.8L, but wow!!

So if the dealer charges 90 then a normal shop would probably be close to half right??
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:35 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
you are "supposed" to do a CASE learn whenever you replace the pcm or remove the crank sensor. most people dont get it done unless they get a code for it, or they have problems.

This is correct AFAIK.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:00 pm

With a scan tool, the CASE learn procedure takes a minute or two.

I did not find a manual procedure for CASE learn in the repair manual; it may be in the second edition of the '98 manual (I now have first edition).

I did find the procedure, which basically is to clear all the DTCs then with engine temperature at least 158F (70C) you:

- turn ignition off
- use scan tool to get into CASE Learn mode
- start the Riv in PARK
- step on the brake
- press on accelerator until fuel cutoff is reached (that's 5150 RPM) and when you hit that fuel cutoff, get off the gas immediately
- if the procedure terminates abnormally (the scan tool will indicate) then clear codes, turn car off and try again.
- check status of DTC P1336, if it ran and passed then pat yourself on the back because you are done. If not then repeat as necessary.

By the way if you do replace your production PCM with a service PCM be sure to copy the broadcast code and production PCM number to a (big) sticker on the service PCM.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:46 am

Got it. It was a broken wire. Well, 2 wires. Thanks to all who helped me!!
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:13 pm

96Super wrote:
Got it. It was a broken wire. Well, 2 wires. Thanks to all who helped me!!


Glad you found the problem!
Which wires were broken, wherebouts were they broken and how were they repaired? study

Bert tavis
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:16 pm

ibmoses wrote:
96Super wrote:
Got it. It was a broken wire. Well, 2 wires. Thanks to all who helped me!!


Glad you found the problem!
Which wires were broken, wherebouts were they broken and how were they repaired? study

Bert tavis
agree agree
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PostSubject: Re: P0102, P0341 and intermittent Throttle Pos Sensor??   Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:14 pm

ibmoses wrote:
96Super wrote:
Got it. It was a broken wire. Well, 2 wires. Thanks to all who helped me!!


Glad you found the problem!
Which wires were broken, wherebouts were they broken and how were they repaired? study

Bert tavis

I have no clue how they broke.... there is 2 large connectors on the firewall, the 2 wires were broken behind the block, the one next to the cruise control motor. They were broken so shot, and clean it almost looks like it was cut with wire cutters... So I butt-connected the two together, and now it runs strong!! YAHOOO
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