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 Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?

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ibmoses
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Rickw wrote:
For what it's worth i will replace my battery with another AC Delco as well if they still make this battery by the time i need one. The previous owner told me he put a new OEM replacement in before he sold the car to me.
The battery he replaced was the original one to the car from the factory.
He knew because he bought the car new. That's a damn good track record for a battery. I'm sure some of it's extra long life can be attributed to the fact that it is mounted inside the car as opposed to under the hood, but still is quite impressive.

I think AA's car still has the original equipment battery, thats got to be a record.

I have the receipt where the dealer replaced the battery in the wife's 99 Riv in June 06. The total was $141.28.

We have a Interstate warehouse local here. I buy "seconds" from them for most of my vehicles and so far have had no problems with them.

Bert tavis
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:41 pm

albertj wrote:
The issues are probably a contributing factor into why the car has such low miles. Wonder if Kyle has a service history on the car - that is, the receipts/description of prior work done on it. Might give us all some troubleshooting ideas.

I wonder how the foglights are wired?

Albertj

Yes I was wondering about what the previous owner did to it. Unfortunately I don't have a complete record, but from the looks of things the guy took good care of most of the stuff. The car did sit for awhile though, due to his death. I know the engine was well taken care of, one thing I did find was the receipts for the oil changes and it was changed every 3000 or so miles with new mobil one synthetic. I think it's just a combination of it sitting and me being a pain in the butt as far as little issues go. I'm extremely anal about my cars, so a lot of this stuff, minus the nonworking signal stalk and the battery drain would probably go unnoticed.

As far as the Duralast battery goes, it's actually made by the same company that makes the diehard batteries (ironically enough I have a diehard jump pack that's been getting a good workout). That's why I went with it to begin with. It was the cheapest of the batteries that were made by Johnson Controls
Quote :

* Johnson Controls makes Diehard (Sears), Duralast (AutoZone), Interstate, Kirkland (Costco), Motorcraft (Ford), and some EverStarts.
* Exide makes Champion, Exide, Napa, and some EverStart.
* Delphi makes ACDelco and some EverStart (Wal-Mart).


Breakdown of issues:

1.) Parasitic drain
2.) weak horn
3.) ABS and traction control inop (due to defective NEW wheel bearing hub assembly)
4.) Tire Vibration
5.) Windshield control inop
6.) failing AC clutch that makes a horrible noise unless AC in engaged
7.) in need of new struts desperately

Other than that the car purrs like a kitten. It really does drive like a car with 65,000 miles on it. Just these little electrical issues (which I knew would happen with this car anyway) have been driving me insane. I literally went from a buick where everything was controlled with cables, knobs and the occasional mechanical relay to the Riviera where around every trim piece is a computer or a wire of some sort. Still has fewer problems than my fathers '04 Suburban, and my grandfathers '99 Seville.
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:26 pm

Anyone have any idea if the BCM, PCM, or another computer that I don't know about is tied to this fuse? I talked to one guy who seems to think it may be a computer failing to go into sleep mode. frown
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:47 pm

I think your problem now (it's been ~8 hours) is that absent your follow through on the advice you got so far, folks are out of ideas.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:03 pm

just a guess..but, maybe this battery doesnt have enough power to run everything the riv has? try a optima..
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:58 pm

The battery and alternator both checked out fine btw. Car starts right up as long as I routinely pull the ELC/IP fuse. I'm just now out of curiosity wondering what exactly is tied into that fuse. When I disconnect it, the doors won't lock, the keyless entry doesn't work, the electronic load control doesn't work, and the radio, climate control, and gauge cluster (gauges and odometer/trip) also don't function. So I can only imagine what else is tied into there but runs behind the scene.
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:15 pm

Here's an update:

Long story short, I brought the car to the dealer to get the parasitic drain fixed. I told them point blank, that it has to do with the IP/ELC fuse, and that it has NOTHING to do with any aftermarket wiring, and that it did it before I installed anything. Well needless to say, they never even checked that fuse, and did a general drain test. They told me that it was the cigarette lighter that I used for a powersource on some aftermarket equipment. I know there's a drain on that, but it's not enough of a drain to kill the battery. I told them that even with the IP/ELC fuse pulled the cigarette lighter remains powered, yet my battery doesn't drain. But if I keep the fuse in, it drains in 8 hours. I can't seem to get it through their thick heads that it's whatever system is fed off the IP/ELC fuse and NOT the aftermarket equipment. They seem dead set on that and won't budge. Yet they have the audacity to charge me $100 to tell me I have something plugged into my cigarette lighter. GAHHHHHH!!!!!!! headbutt headbutt headbutt headbutt headbutt headbutt
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:24 am

The point is you have to disconnect the aftermarket stuff in order to diagnose. When the diagnosis is done then teh aftermarket stuff can be reconnected. It is likely that you will learn things with the aftermarket stuff disconnected to prevent a parasitic drain when they are reconnected.

Look, nobody is getting thrills telling you to disconnect the stuff. It's just "been there done that" and experience shows that it's the first thing you have to do. It's really not about your stuff and your mods. It's about sharing wisdom with you that works.

So thanks for the update, and be advised that in order to get through troubleshooting you're going to have to disconnect the aftermarket electricals and see what happens. Let's assume that the drain is still there when you disconnect all the aftermarket stuff--according to what you're saying it should be. If that is the case, then he parasitic drain problem can be quickly found by referring to the wiring diagrams and using a current detector (ref my earlier post) to see what wire is running the drain. Then it can be fixed and most likely the aftermarket equipment connected.

By the way, you may want to connect accessories at one or another fuse panel rather than jumping off the factory accessory wiring. Just a thought. you may find that wiring your own fuse block directly to the battery wiring terminal points (on the passenger side frame rail) woudl work best and give you all the circuits you need. One way is with something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00062Z5VG

and another way is just to go to a junkyard and find a car with a simple fuse block - maybe an old Hyundai - pull that out and install it in the Riv somewhere in the engine compartment, under the dash, or under the rear seat if you still have room.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:00 pm

Ended up being the power antenna and the electronic load control. I disconnected the antenna (I don't care about it anyway), and now I'm on the search for a new air compressor for the load control. Apparently the pump never shuts off. Is that a defective pump or more than likely a defective module?
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:05 pm

Most likely a leaky air shock!

You're telling us that through all this, you couldn't hear that pump running all the time?
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:17 pm

FYI, I had a leaky air shock once. I don't remember that it operated the pump with the car off. It eventually burned out the pump, but the near 10 year old stock battery never failed to start the car.

_________________
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:40 pm

You'll need to use a test light or voltmeter to check the air ride switch.

However - congratulations on finding the problem and you should be able to get the pump and switch assembly from Ed Morad

http://www.moradpartscompany.com/

I've bought parts from Ed, always been fine.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:41 pm

deekster_caddy wrote:
]
You're telling us that through all this, you couldn't hear that pump running all the time?

Nope, and I still can't hear the pump run. Just the initial hiss. Anyway, I got curious and connected the rear air shocks pump back up. Been driving it for a good three weeks like that now and no more parasitic drain. Apparently it was just the power antenna that was drawing enough juice to kill the battery.

Anyway, sorry guys I haven't been around. I switched jobs and I've been extremely busy. I'm glad to be back though.

Wish I would have thought of the antenna and saved myself $400, but you live and learn. I now know my dealer was apparently just guessing what was causing it.
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:11 pm

Thank you *very* much for posting the followup.

If you want a power antenna PM me and we'll work a deal, I have a spare one - an aftermarket Metra that has a factory style connector I attached to it (so you do not need to splice it into the harness and you do not need to guess which wire goes where). I used it for a while and lucked up on a factory antenna from a parkavenue - happened by the pick-n-pull - so I put the factory whip back in and removed/stored the aftermarket. Why? The aftermarket Metra ferrule sits a little out of the fender, by design. I always liked the OE design that has the ferrule that sits in the fender instead of on it. Some people like the Metra design better (it never gets plugged with ice and really does not admit water like the OE antenna) maybe you will too.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:39 pm

AA wrote:
FYI, I had a leaky air shock once. I don't remember that it operated the pump with the car off. It eventually burned out the pump, but the near 10 year old stock battery never failed to start the car.

The ELC is not designed to run with the ignition off... It holds the air in the system for a few minutes, then exhausts it and doesn't do anything until the next ignition cycle.
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:11 am

Eldo wrote:
The ELC is not designed to run with the ignition off (this is correct)... It holds the air in the system for a few minutes, then exhausts it and doesn't do anything until the next ignition cycle.
The system should not Exhaust the air after shutdown.
The only way that would happen is if there is a leak in the system, i.e., shocks or tubing/air line leak.
Or if the exhaust solenoid located in the head of the compressor is defective and "exhausting" the air when it shouldn't be. The only time the Exhaust solenoid is activated is when the ride height sensor senses the rear of the car is too high and lowers the ass end down to the selected height. And the solenoid is activated briefly on startup of the compressor to relieve initial pressure on the compressor and give a little time to spool up, then the Exhaust valve closes. This is to help prolong the life of the compressor by unloading it (compression release) on start up of the pump. Which also happens every time the car is started for a certain amount of seconds, I can't remember the amount of time off the top of my head.
I learned how this system worked shortly after buying my car and finding the rear shock bladders were NG. Then after replacing the shocks with new I found my exhaust solenoid to be Inop and causing the pump to run continuasly because the exhaust solenoid/valve was stuck open.
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:48 am

Rickw wrote:
Eldo wrote:
The ELC is not designed to run with the ignition off (this is correct)... It holds the air in the system for a few minutes, then exhausts it and doesn't do anything until the next ignition cycle.
The system should not Exhaust the air after shutdown.
The only way that would happen is if there is a leak in the system, i.e., shocks or tubing/air line leak.
Or if the exhaust solenoid located in the head of the compressor is defective and "exhausting" the air when it shouldn't be. The only time the Exhaust solenoid is activated is when the ride height sensor senses the rear of the car is too high and lowers the ass end down to the selected height. And the solenoid is activated briefly on startup of the compressor to relieve initial pressure on the compressor and give a little time to spool up, then the Exhaust valve closes. This is to help prolong the life of the compressor by unloading it (compression release) on start up of the pump. Which also happens every time the car is started for a certain amount of seconds, I can't remember the amount of time off the top of my head.
I learned how this system worked shortly after buying my car and finding the rear shock bladders were NG. Then after replacing the shocks with new I found my exhaust solenoid to be Inop and causing the pump to run continuasly because the exhaust solenoid/valve was stuck open.

Ricky, you're questioning me?? Ahhhh bounce

Actually, for the FSM, I'll split the difference with you. However, I'm basing my opinion on my Eldorado, which shared a lot of the programming that is built into the Riv on the ELC, the ECC, etc... After shutdown, I could HEAR the compressor release the air.

When I parked my Cadillac, it would deflate after a minute or two. The FSM for the Riviera states, "The compressor is activated when the ignition is on, and weight is added to the vehicle. The exhaust solenoid is connected directly to the battery (+), enabling the system to exhaust with the ignition off when excess weight is removed."

I suppose the combination of an always-hot exhaust valve, and taking weight out of the trunk when parking, may have made me make my statement... Along with those Trim Height measurements, I'll test my theory about the system bleeding down after shutoff - if the temperature would just come up a few degrees...
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:43 am

Eldo wrote:
Rickw wrote:
Eldo wrote:
The ELC is not designed to run with the ignition off (this is correct)... It holds the air in the system for a few minutes, then exhausts it and doesn't do anything until the next ignition cycle.
The system should not Exhaust the air after shutdown. (And I should have added "Except when removing weight from the trunk")
The only way that would happen is if there is a leak in the system, i.e., shocks or tubing/air line leak.
Or if the exhaust solenoid located in the head of the compressor is defective and "exhausting" the air when it shouldn't be. The only time the Exhaust solenoid is activated is when the ride height sensor senses the rear of the car is too high and lowers the ass end down to the selected height. And the solenoid is activated briefly on startup of the compressor to relieve initial pressure on the compressor and give a little time to spool up, then the Exhaust valve closes. This is to help prolong the life of the compressor by unloading it (compression release) on start up of the pump. Which also happens every time the car is started for a certain amount of seconds, I can't remember the amount of time off the top of my head.
I learned how this system worked shortly after buying my car and finding the rear shock bladders were NG. Then after replacing the shocks with new I found my exhaust solenoid to be Inop and causing the pump to run continuasly because the exhaust solenoid/valve was stuck open.

Ricky, you're questioning me?? Ahhhh bounce

Actually, for the FSM, I'll split the difference with you. However, I'm basing my opinion on my Eldorado, which shared a lot of the programming that is built into the Riv on the ELC, the ECC, etc... After shutdown, I could HEAR the compressor release the air.

When I parked my Cadillac, it would deflate after a minute or two. The FSM for the Riviera states, "The compressor is activated when the ignition is on, and weight is added to the vehicle. The exhaust solenoid is connected directly to the battery (+), enabling the system to exhaust with the ignition off when excess weight is removed."

I suppose the combination of an always-hot exhaust valve, and taking weight out of the trunk when parking, may have made me make my statement... Along with those Trim Height measurements, I'll test my theory about the system bleeding down after shutoff - if the temperature would just come up a few degrees...
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:50 am

Hello gents

The automatic level control (ALC) compressor runs when the ignition power is on or during the air compressor head relief sequence; however the exhaust solenoid (and sensor) is connected to the battery, which lets it exhaust air when the car is off given certain conditions. My understanding is that it'll run a little after shutoff if needed but IIRC that's not in the FSM, and it would be only during that 10 minutes or so when accessory power is still available to the car. Has something to do with the 'resting' air pressure set point. If for some reason the wiring in the car has been changed, say due to a collision repair by a tech not familiar with how this ALC is to be powered, I can imagine that the compressor could easily be wired such that it is energized all the time.

The system has to bleed down to a maximum 14 psi after shutdown. I assume it bleeds down to something around the prevailing atmospheric pressure, which would be the range 7 to 14 psi depending on altitude... but I really don't know whether or how they sense that. Could be circuitry attached to the height sensor/exhaust solenoid setup.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:08 pm

albertj wrote:

The system has to bleed down to a maximum 14 psi after shutdown. I assume it bleeds down to something around the prevailing atmospheric pressure, which would be the range 7 to 14 psi depending on altitude... but I really don't know whether or how they sense that. Could be circuitry attached to the height sensor/exhaust solenoid setup.
Albertj

As you know, that was my belief but I couldn't find a clear quote in the manual. Did you find a place that spelled out the key-off bleed-down?
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:16 pm

The only thing I have ever read regarding bleed down, was what you already mentioned. If after shut down and key off, if you remove weight from the car and the rear end rises the exhaust valve will bleed off only enough air to bring it down to the pre-set height dictated by the setting of the height sensor attached to the LR Control Arm.
There is no Barometric sensor that sets the shocks to 1 BAR


Last edited by Rickw on Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:01 pm

Eldo wrote:
albertj wrote:

The system has to bleed down to a maximum 14 psi after shutdown. I assume it bleeds down to something around the prevailing atmospheric pressure, which would be the range 7 to 14 psi depending on altitude... but I really don't know whether or how they sense that. Could be circuitry attached to the height sensor/exhaust solenoid setup.
Albertj

As you know, that was my belief but I couldn't find a clear quote in the manual. Did you find a place that spelled out the key-off bleed-down?

Which manual?

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:07 pm

I just read the Description and Operation from Mitchell OnDemand and the following addresses something that isn't in the FSM:

The Air Dryer mounted to compressor inlet contains desiccant and valves that maintain minimum system pressure at 7 - 14 psi.
The ALC Height Sensor does have Battery Power to it at all times, powered from the ELC 30amp fuse below right rear seat. (This info i got from the Mitchell Wiring Diagram.) The Compressor Motor is powered by "Hot in Run" 10amp Ignition Fuse (switched with ignition). So the compressor cannot operated with the key off. But the Exhaust solenoid can.
Much more detailed info than the FSM, or should I say additional info to be added to the FSM data.

There probably should be a replacement schedule for the desiccant container. There is no call out for replacing it periodically in the FSM though.


Last edited by Rickw on Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:13 pm

Rickw wrote:
The only thing I have ever read regarding bleed down, was what you already mentioned. If after shut down and key off, if you remove weight from the car and the rear end rises the exhaust valve will bleed off only enough air to bring it down to the pre-set height dictated by the setting of the control unit attached to the LR Control Arm.
There is no Barometric sensor that sets the shocks to 1 BAR

All you'd have to do is bleed off air until the air quits escaping or the level sensor hits "level" whichever comes first. No matter how you do that the remaining pressure will be between 7 and 14 psi. Around 7 on Pike's Peak and around 14 at/below sea level (salt lake/death valley). If you just open the air valve the pressure in the shocks will soon reach equllibrium with the ambient outside air pressure.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Parasitic Drain Issue. Any Advice?   Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:15 pm

Rickw wrote:
I just read the Description and Operation from Mitchell OnDemand and the following addresses something that isn't in the FSM:

The Air Dryer mounted to compressor inlet contains desiccant and valves that maintain minimum system pressure at 7 - 14 psi.
The ALC Height Sensor does have Battery Power to it at all times, powered from the ELC 30amp fuse below right rear seat. (This info i got from the Mitchell Wiring Diagram.) The Compressor Motor is powered by "Hot in Run" 10amp Ignition Fuse (switched with ignition). So the compressor cannot operated with the key off. But the Exhaust solenoid can.
Much more detailed info than the FSM, or should I say additional info to be added to the FSM data.

The '98 FSM says pretty much the above but does not tell you which fuses the power goes through - you have to read the wiring diagrams to figure that out.
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