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 Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install

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robotennis61
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:05 pm

im curious about the front subframe that came off your car Drew. about how much does it weigh?
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turtleman
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:37 pm

As far as that relocated knock sensor, I'm curious to know, do you guys that have 98-99 cars and a tuner have the ability to change any perameters on the knock sensor sensitivity or anything like that? My 97 which has the knock module doesn't give me anything to change in that area.
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:04 am

robotennis61 wrote:
im curious about the front subframe that came off your car Drew. about how much does it weigh?

good question....I'd estimate around 100lbs. maybe more.
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:07 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:


I'll definatly be looking at this install info if/when my trans dies. either that or a full L32+4T65+PCM swap.

Im not real comfortable with "taking a little off the edges" of the counterweight, but my mechanic assures me that it won't be a problem. Without a doubt he knows alot more than me about flywheels and counterweights so Im trusting his judgement.

as for your plans for a swap....if you plan to mod big time, I would suggest a 4t80. Guys running 300-350 WHP are doing okay, but with custom rebuilt and reinforced 4t65's. I wonder at what HP rating they will have their reinforced trans starting to give into the power.

I didn't ever want to run into that problem, hence the 4t80 project
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robotennis61
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:29 am

100 lbs . holy shit. thats heavy!
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:42 pm

got back to work today....it was officially at "junk yard hunt" day. We got a front trans bracket from an aurora since my 4t80 only came with a rear bracket. cost me $5.

also got a harness from an aurora for the trans. the same harness the 65's use. but its nothing like my 60 harness so now Im researching the wiring work we gotta do. The VSS harness on the passenger side of the trans is plug and play and so is the shift selector module. The maing harness has about 6 extra wires that we cant crimp into the stock wires and we will be hardwiring those to the PCM.

tomorrow or sunday were bolting the subframe back in now that we have the front trans mount bracket we need.
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:45 pm

made the L bracket for the passenger side of the trans next to the VSS sensor. We made ours with the leftover tran mount bracket from the 60e. It worked perfectly and its heavy duty enough for the application, just what mounts are made for. Will get a pic up later. Its not pretty, but fits like a glove. Couldn't get a good pic of it installed, just seeing it in person is hard enough due to the location. We used threadlocker on the bolt going into the motor.

got the flywheel bolts back in, applied with threadlocker. bolted the starter back up and then bolted in the subframe. Popped in the new axles too.

Left to do next week:
bolt in power steering knuckle
wire up transmission
run new trans lines
call dealer for verification of final drive ratio for tuning purposes
mount tires, fill up transmission with fluid, etc and test run.
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:22 pm

well we hit a nightmare.

the shift selector module that goes on out 60's and 65's will not fit correctly onto an 80. The wire harnesses that run into this module come into the module from the lower left corner. The 80 has a huge lip that comes up and prevents this mounting from happening like it does with the 60's.

From my understanding, the shift selector module must be reinstalled like it was on the 60's or well be guessing which gear is which. Were wondering if an Aurora shift selector would work, but we dont yet know if the wire harnesses are the same. Obviously the switch would appear backwards from the 60s and 65s.

What turbo did apparently, was "modify" the stock shift selector by cutting it all up to fit like it should on the 80e. We will be trying to copy his technique. I'll try to get a few pics of what the "new" module will look like. Its gonna be alot of dremeling, solder, and wire connectors.

Maybe there is a better way of doing this, if anyone understands how the shift selector module works better than I do, I'd love to hear it.
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:57 am

ok, the shift selector problem is solved. All auroras, rivs, grand prix, etc appear to use the same shift selector. The difference on the aurora is that its twisted around 180 degrees because the shift cable comes from the rear instead of from the front. We took one off of an aurora and it fits like it did on the 60e because a special bracket that came on the 80e allows its to fit correctly, even for a shift cable coming from the front.

we got the trans filled up today (11 quarts!!!) and wired up today...mostly. The car goes into drive and reverse like it should and the axles are moving. But were getting SES lights, one for TCC PWM SOL and another for TCC SOL i think. The trans makes a weird noise and the axles seem to "jerk" while spinning. Im sure we got some wiring wrong because about 1/3 of the wiring we were guessing on - gotta dig up more wiring diagrams online.

The ISS wires (high and low) haven't been run to the new PCM yet (what does the ISS do? , so that could be the problem as well. We had to go to the junkyard and get some pins for the empty slots in the 96 wiring harness that hooks up to the PCM. They aren't there because the 96 vac controlled trans doesnt have and ISS.

the wiring harness on the 96 4t60e trans included these wires:

A. 1-2 solenoid
B. 2-3 solenoid
C.TCC PWM solenoid
D. TCC solenoid (dont see this on the 97+, does it have another name?)
E. Ground
F. TFT sensor positive
G. TFT sensor ground

The wiring harness on the 97+ models (electronically controlled) include:

A. 1-2 solenoid
B. 2-3 solenoid
C. pressure control solenoid valve High
D. pressure control solenoid valve Low (from the diagrams, this plugs into ignition power pin of PCM, so Im guessing the valve high is the ground?)
E. Ground
M. TFT sensor ground
L. TFT sensor High
N. Range switch A
R. Range switch B
P. Range switch C
T. TCC PWM solenoid
U. TCC release switch (what is this? is it the same as TCC solenoid from above?)
V. ISS sensor low
S. ISS sensor high
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BillBoost37
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:22 am

If the connector wiring is the same as a 4T65E, then contact Buickman104. He has all the wiring color/cavity from when I swapped Oldsman's car from a 60 to 65. There was one wire taht I had trouble finding and used a 97 Bonneville FSM and a little guessing to ensure it was right. Trans went in and worked like a champ.

As far as those of us with higher horsepower builds, it's not an issue if you have it buiilt properly. I've had a couple issues, but don't blame the actual trans for most of them.

Intense Gen 3 LSD's. Lots of guys have trouble with them.
Input Speed Sensor Reluctor Wheel came loose. Not a common issue.
Torque converter. It was aftermarket and it held for 3 years. Many guys were having trouble with them too. Part of that may have been the 245mm in a heavier car.
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:29 pm

Got the car on the road again....but only gears 1 and 2 are working.

We are getting a SES light for Pressure Control Solenoid. We cant get the circuit closed and we think that is why we cannot shift past 2nd. Can anyone confirm this?

The 97 pcm has a connector in slot 61 that controls the PC Solenoid High, and there is another wire somewhere for the PC Solenoid Low. My schematics show slot 20 on the pcm - but thats for the ignition power. So the picture must be wrong. We dont know what number pinout on the pcm is that wire. Hence we cant close the circuit.

Any ideas?
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:38 pm

got the schematics and got the TCC PWM solenoid DTC light to go out. But still getting the PC solenoid despite getting it connected correctly.
Then my damn scanner on my powertuner went out! But it still clears and reads DTC's. The problems never end.

Anyways, now the car starts moving in 3rd gear, then downshift to 2nd, then stays there until I manually shift it to 3rd. But still no 4th or overdrive.

Anyone know where to look to fix this? What do we have connected wrong? We ran new wires to the PCM for the trans range A,B,C connectors and the TCC release in.
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oldsman105
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:45 pm

I think you have to rewire the internal trans harness ( I could have swore I read something to that effect in turbo400s thread).
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Turbocharged400sbc
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:26 pm

dreww wrote:
98riviera98 wrote:
dreww wrote:
98riviera98 wrote:
That knock sensor is going into a coolant passage correct?

no...its not. Turbo had a long discussion over this topic either in this thread on this board or the post he had on the DHP board. Either way, the theory is that knock would travel even better/faster through iron (block) that water.

sounds like you would get more false KR from that IMO.. thats just my theory though..

we'll know soon enough. study

i have before and after test data from a 65e trans equipped 04 that had both knock sensor locations....signal amplitude/freq was identical

had consistent 2* part throttle kr at oem sensor location...same 2* kr when i switched the pigtail to the upper sensor.

not an issue...removing too much weight from the counterweight isnt a good idea, arp sells high clearance 12pt flexplate to converter bolts that dont require any grinding
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Turbocharged400sbc
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:35 pm

fyi the 97 trans controls may be a little different from the 98+
for the internal mode pressure switch to wire up properly we needed the 97-99 80e trans with the 98 riv

btw the 80e trans connector has two grounds where the 65e has one....you need to add the ground wire

in regards to the TCc it is not used the 80e doesnot have the TCC pressure manifold switch to tell the pcm it's on, instead of tearing down the trans to put a hobbs switch in the TCC bleed path we deleted all TCC parameters and codes, no problems in fact the 65e TCC sensor wire goes to the 80e's additional ground wire if i recall correctly
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:25 pm

Turbocharged400sbc wrote:
fyi the 97 trans controls may be a little different from the 98+
for the internal mode pressure switch to wire up properly we needed the 97-99 80e trans with the 98 riv

btw the 80e trans connector has two grounds where the 65e has one....you need to add the ground wire

in regards to the TCc it is not used the 80e doesnot have the TCC pressure manifold switch to tell the pcm it's on, instead of tearing down the trans to put a hobbs switch in the TCC bleed path we deleted all TCC parameters and codes, no problems in fact the 65e TCC sensor wire goes to the 80e's additional ground wire if i recall correctly

we dont know for sure what year trans we have. but ive noticed that on the newer years (2000 on up), the trans housing looks a little different from the housing on my trans. So we believe that the trans is 99 or older. We are not getting an error code for the gear ratio that I put in (3.71) so we believe we "guessed" the FDR correctly.

Do you know which wire on the trans harness is this 2nd ground? The harness is lettered, so if you know the letter that would be awesome. Then we could hook it to the TCC wire that we still have hanging off the stock wiring harness.
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Turbocharged400sbc
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:11 am

dreww wrote:
Turbocharged400sbc wrote:
fyi the 97 trans controls may be a little different from the 98+
for the internal mode pressure switch to wire up properly we needed the 97-99 80e trans with the 98 riv

btw the 80e trans connector has two grounds where the 65e has one....you need to add the ground wire

in regards to the TCc it is not used the 80e doesnot have the TCC pressure manifold switch to tell the pcm it's on, instead of tearing down the trans to put a hobbs switch in the TCC bleed path we deleted all TCC parameters and codes, no problems in fact the 65e TCC sensor wire goes to the 80e's additional ground wire if i recall correctly

we dont know for sure what year trans we have. but ive noticed that on the newer years (2000 on up), the trans housing looks a little different from the housing on my trans. So we believe that the trans is 99 or older. We are not getting an error code for the gear ratio that I put in (3.71) so we believe we "guessed" the FDR correctly.

Do you know which wire on the trans harness is this 2nd ground? The harness is lettered, so if you know the letter that would be awesome. Then we could hook it to the TCC wire that we still have hanging off the stock wiring harness.
if the trans is 97-99 it will work fine with the 97/98 + 65e hd pcm's, your car uses the older 96 and older trans which doesnt have the pressure manifold switch assembly, my guess is youd probably have an easier time with wiring (and not having to swap to 97/98+ 65ehd/3800 harness) if you got a 96 and older 80e
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Turbocharged400sbc
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:11 am

oh btw i relinked all my pics so you should be able to see the pics of the modified TRS etc
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:22 pm

Turbocharged400sbc wrote:
dreww wrote:
Turbocharged400sbc wrote:
fyi the 97 trans controls may be a little different from the 98+
for the internal mode pressure switch to wire up properly we needed the 97-99 80e trans with the 98 riv

btw the 80e trans connector has two grounds where the 65e has one....you need to add the ground wire

in regards to the TCc it is not used the 80e doesnot have the TCC pressure manifold switch to tell the pcm it's on, instead of tearing down the trans to put a hobbs switch in the TCC bleed path we deleted all TCC parameters and codes, no problems in fact the 65e TCC sensor wire goes to the 80e's additional ground wire if i recall correctly

we dont know for sure what year trans we have. but ive noticed that on the newer years (2000 on up), the trans housing looks a little different from the housing on my trans. So we believe that the trans is 99 or older. We are not getting an error code for the gear ratio that I put in (3.71) so we believe we "guessed" the FDR correctly.

Do you know which wire on the trans harness is this 2nd ground? The harness is lettered, so if you know the letter that would be awesome. Then we could hook it to the TCC wire that we still have hanging off the stock wiring harness.
if the trans is 97-99 it will work fine with the 97/98 + 65e hd pcm's, your car uses the older 96 and older trans which doesnt have the pressure manifold switch assembly, my guess is youd probably have an easier time with wiring (and not having to swap to 97/98+ 65ehd/3800 harness) if you got a 96 and older 80e

not so, because ALL the 4t80's are electronically controlled where as the 96 and older 4t60's are vac controlled
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:23 pm

BillBoost37 wrote:
If the connector wiring is the same as a 4T65E, then contact Buickman104. He has all the wiring color/cavity from when I swapped Oldsman's car from a 60 to 65. There was one wire taht I had trouble finding and used a 97 Bonneville FSM and a little guessing to ensure it was right. Trans went in and worked like a champ.

As far as those of us with higher horsepower builds, it's not an issue if you have it buiilt properly. I've had a couple issues, but don't blame the actual trans for most of them.

Intense Gen 3 LSD's. Lots of guys have trouble with them.
Input Speed Sensor Reluctor Wheel came loose. Not a common issue.
Torque converter. It was aftermarket and it held for 3 years. Many guys were having trouble with them too. Part of that may have been the 245mm in a heavier car.

do you know what this wire was? PC solenoid perhaps? Yes, months later I STILL dont have this fixed! grrrr!
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:54 pm

ok, back onto this project.

I wired up another trans harness with better connectors. I used wire extensions soldered all connectors and covered with electrical tape so we could wire from up on the fender instead of way down in the engine bay by the trans. pics below.

anyways, I found a wire on the aurora (4t80e) wiring diagrams that showed it uses a 2nd 12v power supply line. Wires "E" and "U" on the trans harness are both power wires. By hooking up this 2nd wire, we got power to the pressure control solenoid and now we have no DTC lights at all. Great right?

Wrong, we STILL can't get the car to shift past 2nd. No more clunking into gear now that the pressure is under control, and the car screams through 1st and 2nd gears. No slipping, very little breaking traction....just takeoffs than put you in your seat and neck jerking shifts. The tach flys from 3k to redline.




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any ideas on what else were missing?
There is one wire coming from the trans harness that we didn't use....it wire "R" and its labeled as being used for a trans Range B signal. But the aurora 4t80 trans only has Range A and C signals. The aurora trans diagrams show no "R" wire used whatsoever. Then why is it on the harness? hmmmmm
There are 2 wires from the stock trans harness that we also arent using. one is for TCC control which is not used, and the other appears to be a ground. When we put the Range B wire from the 80 harness to the ground in the stock harness we blow and ignition fuse. bonk

I think I need to look at the range selector switch on top of the trans.
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:51 pm

update:

the older model late 90's 4t80 trans do have an external range switch on the trans, and 5 fewer wires in the main harness.

my 4t80 is a later model, early 2000's, and it has no external range selector switch. Those signals go straight to the main trans harness, which has 5 extra wires to accomodate those signals.

about to install my newer trans harness and see how it goes....
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black shadow
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:23 pm

good luck.
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dreww
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:24 pm

well, Im throwing in the white flag here. Whoever has contemplated do this swap....save your time.

Ive got at least a grand in parts into this build, and god only knows how many hours of time put into it. The car has been down for over half a year and I really haven't figured out any solutions in that time, despite hours and hours working on wiring.

Looking online, no one appears to have actually completed this job which tells me Im wasting my time. Just go with a built up trans made for the rivs.
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black shadow
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 4T80e Transmission Install   Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:12 pm

sorry for the frustrations sounds like a lot of work and I am not saying that it was for nothing but what is wrong with the 700R4, you build them to run your tires right off of your car.
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