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Ryan from Ohio
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PostSubject: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:33 pm

Ok, heres the run down wink

I put a Series 3 3800 into our 95 Rivi, switching out all sensors that needed to be, injectors, etc.

Car throws check engine constantly. I had it scanned and was told it was the cam sensor. I replaced that, still have issues:
http://rivperformance.editboard.com/series-ii-n-a-engine-transmission-pcm-f16/p0342-cam-sensor-t5533.htm?sid=e455d92e49cc98f33863963630b77c62

The car just doesnt run right. The lights dim excessively at idle while in gear. It lopes. Now its loping and doing the lights dimming thing while in park also...

IIm beggining to wonder if its the cat converter... I was also told the transmission fluid?

Any other thoughts?
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L67
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:01 pm

Are you still running the 95 PCM?
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Ryan from Ohio
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:38 pm

L67 wrote:
Are you still running the 95 PCM?

I guess so. Cant say I changed it out (that I know of).

Whats the PCM computer?

The motor came from an 04 Malibu I guess... With 40K miles on it.

Again all sensors are off the original motor.
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L67
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:46 pm

Well first off no Malibus came with the 3800, so are you sure that it is one? The only V6's from that gen Malibu are the 3.5 and 3.9 (SS model). The Series I PCM might not be compatible with the newer engine due to it being OBD 1.5. If there's a multitude of issues like you mentioned I would bet there is some sort of issue with the early PCM and late model motor. Was your Riv previously supercharged?

Edit: just saw your sig, ignore the Malibu part.
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Ryan from Ohio
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:17 pm

Malibu, Impala same thing :p

From my understanding the N/A Rivi was OBD 1.5

Everything went smooth. Every plug from the car has its spot. Nothing is undone (now). Like I said ALL sensors were switched over without issue.

I guess I got my car issues in 3 threads frown

http://rivperformance.editboard.com/care-maintenance-f8/clogged-convertor-t6147.htm
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L67
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:34 pm

Ryan from Ohio wrote:
Malibu, Impala same thing :p

From my understanding the N/A Rivi was OBD 1.5

Everything went smooth. Every plug from the car has its spot. Nothing is undone (now). Like I said ALL sensors were switched over without issue.

I guess I got my car issues in 3 threads frown

http://rivperformance.editboard.com/care-maintenance-f8/clogged-convertor-t6147.htm

Right, but even if the sensors were switched, the PCM might not be capable of communicating with them or is tuned for different values etc.
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1998 Riv
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:33 pm

Pretty much all swap threads I've read have stated that you MUST acquire and use the PCM from the donor car, especially when you're working with a few years difference between donor and recipient car.
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:51 pm

Ryan from Ohio wrote:
Ok, heres the run down wink

I put a Series 3 3800 into our 95 Rivi, switching out all sensors that needed to be, injectors, etc.

Car throws check engine constantly. I had it scanned and was told it was the cam sensor. I replaced that, still have issues:
http://rivperformance.editboard.com/series-ii-n-a-engine-transmission-pcm-f16/p0342-cam-sensor-t5533.htm?sid=e455d92e49cc98f33863963630b77c62

The car just doesnt run right. The lights dim excessively at idle while in gear. It lopes. Now its loping and doing the lights dimming thing while in park also...

IIm beggining to wonder if its the cat converter... I was also told the transmission fluid?

Any other thoughts?

I agree with needing to get the corresponding PCM in there. I doubt the sensors are much different but unless you are using all the original electronic sensors and actuators, you need those to match the PCM. The wiring is setup differently between the newer and older PCMs and I don't know how involved the change is between an OBD1.5 PCM and a newer OBDII setup for the electronic transmissions.

I would say catalytic converter and transmission fluid are not possible problems with those symptoms. The dimming lights could just be an effect of the rough idle problem. If the motor ever lopes and drops below 600rpm, the PCM deenergizes the alternator which would cause dimming. That problem could also be a product of the mismatched PCM though IMO.

I think the easiest way out would be to make every component connected to the PCM exactly as it was before the motor swap. Then it's like you just replaced the long block with a new one of the same kind.
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:46 pm

This is a non-S/C setup, right? So basically you did a series II to Series III swap. Theoretically you shouldn't have had to change much

Transmission fluid and catalytic converter will not affect basic running/idling.

Did you change transmissions too, or just engines?

What advice did you follow about 'all the sensors that needed to be swapped'? I'd like to see a list of what sensors are '04 and what sensors are '95. I would think there were some significant differences in there somewhere.


Recently there was a post in a cam/crank sensor thread about finding a broken wire at the firewall. Check your wiring... also make sure the ignition module is grounded properly.
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Ryan from Ohio
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:51 pm

Ok,

I used the short block basically. I had to change every sensor out. I installed a new crank sensor.

I had to install the modular water pump and oil filter.

I used the 95 rivi intake manifold forward (TB and all sensors on it). Same with injectors.

So basically I only used the block, heads and everything internal motor.

All sensors, TB and such is right from the 95 Rivi.

I did this all on my own. Done a few motors now. First one to give issues...
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:26 am

Ok, good to know. And when you replaced the cam sensor, did you get one for the '95? Did you find out if they were the same part number?

It still sounds like you might have a bad wire. It wouldn't be the first cam sensor code from a bad wire...
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:34 am

What kind of issues would one encounter if you haven't done a CASE Learn after replacing the crank sensor.?
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:34 am

Rickw wrote:
What kind of issues would one encounter if you haven't done a CASE Learn after replacing the crank sensor.?

Bingo... wish I'd thought of this.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:47 am

case learn is irrelevant on the 95.
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Ryan from Ohio
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:00 pm

Ok Im reading through some replies in this thread...

"Right, but even if the sensors were switched, the PCM might not be capable of communicating with them or is tuned for different values etc."

Ok, maybe Im missing it here. The stock PCM from the 95 Rivi would have trouble communicating with its own sensors? Every sensor was changed out. Unless they changed position on something like the cam magnet or something to that affect... Otherwise Im not seeing what "could" be different.

"Pretty much all swap threads I've read have stated that you MUST acquire and use the PCM from the donor car, especially when you're working with a few years difference between donor and recipient car."

I would agree with this if I was going from the N/A to the S/C or to an entirely different motor. But its the same motor, just updated. I guess I need to see what those updates included...

"I agree with needing to get the corresponding PCM in there. I doubt the sensors are much different but unless you are using all the original electronic sensors and actuators, you need those to match the PCM."

I am using all the original sensors... I think I changed every sensor out... The entire intake forward is all the original car... I used just the block, heads, internals.

"I think the easiest way out would be to make every component connected to the PCM exactly as it was before the motor swap. Then it's like you just replaced the long block with a new one of the same kind."

Bingo, this is exactly what I did smile

"Did you change transmissions too, or just engines?"

Just engine

"Ok, good to know. And when you replaced the cam sensor, did you get one for the '95? Did you find out if they were the same part number?"

Yes the cam sensor and the crank sensor are the same sensor between both motors despite different series.

"What kind of issues would one encounter if you haven't done a CASE Learn after replacing the crank sensor.?"

I have no clue what that is. I have disconnected the battery and started it after 20 minute wait. Runs real good for about 30-40ish seconds then runs like POOP again...
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:08 pm

[quote="woggy"]case learn is irrelevant on the 95.[/quote

on a stock 95 you are right.

with the replacement PCM and motor, please think again.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:27 pm

Ryan from Ohio wrote:
Runs real good for about 30-40ish seconds then runs like POOP again...

This is a clue to me that you might be having an O2 sensor issue. If it's running good at first, than all the engine sensors are probably hooked up about right. When it tries to start reading the O2 sensor, it all goes to pot. Exhaust leak? Bad O2? Did you use RTV anywhere on the exhaust? I had some RTV kill an O2 sensor once...
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:39 pm

deekster_caddy wrote:
Ryan from Ohio wrote:
Runs real good for about 30-40ish seconds then runs like POOP again...

This is a clue to me that you might be having an O2 sensor issue. If it's running good at first, than all the engine sensors are probably hooked up about right. When it tries to start reading the O2 sensor, it all goes to pot. Exhaust leak? Bad O2? Did you use RTV anywhere on the exhaust? I had some RTV kill an O2 sensor once...

No I didnt use RTV on it.

I caught hell for this in another thread, but I did soak the o2 sensor in carb cleaner.

Guess I will go ahead and replace it then. Start there.

One of the codes thrown when it was scanned was thew 02 sensor. But it was an "old code" I was told.
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:43 pm

I forgot to mention this and I was just reminded of it.

On Saturday we went out. Parked the car. When I went to start it I just some clicking and the lights like blinked funny...

On Monday, she was driving the car into work. She claims it just "died" for like 1 second then started right back up. it sputtered/acted funny.

This problem is getting progressively worse.

We have had the car on the road now almost 1 year with this issue. I fear its gonna leave her stranded and me in the dog house.

Biggest issue is we are both broke right now. So $50 oxygen sensor is like a weeks groceries...
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:47 pm

Ryan from Ohio wrote:
I forgot to mention this and I was just reminded of it.

On Saturday we went out. Parked the car. When I went to start it I just some clicking and the lights like blinked funny...

On Monday, she was driving the car into work. She claims it just "died" for like 1 second then started right back up. it sputtered/acted funny.

This problem is getting progressively worse.

We have had the car on the road now almost 1 year with this issue. I fear its gonna leave her stranded and me in the dog house.

Biggest issue is we are both broke right now. So $50 oxygen sensor is like a weeks groceries...

Sounds like a bum/worn ignition switch (not the key/lock part, the electrical/switch part.

Problem is even as a DIY it's more than $50...

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:55 pm

Thats the wiring?

I just looked it up on autozone... $165 looks like just wires?

Im getting to the point where I wish I had money to just drop it in the shop and have it done...
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:01 pm

Ryan from Ohio wrote:
Thats the wiring?

I just looked it up on autozone... $165 looks like just wires?

Im getting to the point where I wish I had money to just drop it in the shop and have it done...

Ignition switch bolts onto the ign lock, in the sterring column.

The thing that i don't like, is ignition switches did not used to fail after so many miles.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:14 pm

Ed Morad probably has a few good used O2 sensors for less than $50. Try moradpartscompany.com

The 'just dying' issue could be a cam sensor if the wire were brittle and cracked. It has been noted before. Put an ohmmeter on the cam sensor wire from the sensor to the PCM pin and then shake the wiring harness about.
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:06 pm

Ryan,
Is this your only car.??
The one both you and your wife depend on every day.?

How many miles on that O2 sensor, do you know.?
Rick
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Ryan from Ohio
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PostSubject: Re: General running issue   Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:42 pm

Hi Rick,

We each have our own car...

I need mine to take my kid to school/pick up (1/2 hr one way drive).

The Riviera is my Fiance's. She is just starting off in her career as a hair stylist in a salon. Let me say the startings been real slow! Ive been laid off since mid May.

Like I said earlier I would hate to hang $53 on an O2 sensor and have the same issues we currently have.

When I spent $75 to get the car scanned and buy the cam shaft sensor, I was hoping this was done. Thats why I paid $40 for thee scan frown
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