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duckstu
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 3:51 pm

Eldo wrote:
stop
Uh, before you start hacking away at the trunk, can't you at least disconnect the fuel supply & return lines at the pump and pull them out the driver's side of the tank to see if one of them is the culprit?? Tie a good string on them beforehand, so you can pull them back into place.

I'd thought about attempting that.

Any idea how far the lines remain plastic? Are they plastic all the way to the fuel pump?

I was suspecting them yesterday when I remembered that each time I had disconnected the lines from the sending unit, that there was little if any residual fuel pressure. When I do it on my Subaru,....it sprays quite a bit. With the Riv,...it just poured out the return a little.

Do you know if there is enough clearance to pull them out and back in? If the straps can be undone without breaking something i suppose I can get another inch of clearance.

But I have no way of knowing if the plastic lines are attached to the chassis somewhere or if they just flop about like the ABS wires do (and which had flopped about enough to rub themselves in two on a bolt).


And on another note,...my fuel gauge is possessed now. I can turn the car on 4 times and get 4 different fuel readings.

Having just under 1/2 tank, I started the car this morning and it read empty. Then a bit later at the bank I started it up and it read full,...but started creeping downward VERY slowly. ( It might have reached 1/2 tank in 20 minutes.)

This afternoon I turned it on 3 times,..once it read full, once it read just over 1/2 tank,..and the third time it read below 1/2 tank (which is where I think it is in reality).

Sigh,...my list of things to fix had gone from 35 to only 8 or so,...and now it's growing again. I have spent 2 hrs working on this thing for every hour driving it.
.
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Eldo
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 4:24 pm

duckstu wrote:
Eldo wrote:
stop
Uh, before you start hacking away at the trunk, can't you at least disconnect the fuel supply & return lines at the pump and pull them out the driver's side of the tank to see if one of them is the culprit?? Tie a good string on them beforehand, so you can pull them back into place.

I'd thought about attempting that.

Any idea how far the lines remain plastic? Are they plastic all the way to the fuel pump?

IDo you know if there is enough clearance to pull them out and back in? If the straps can be undone without breaking something i suppose I can get another inch of clearance.

And on another note,...my fuel gauge is possessed now. I can turn the car on 4 times and get 4 different fuel readings.
.

Haha - that last bit is a classic problem, don't worry about it. After all, you're going to have everything 'fuel' taken apart anyway... wink Read this thread to learn about the lame sending unit they attached to the fuel pump assembly on these cars. You can buy sending units only, not whole assemblies, but you also may be able to fix it with the method I posted on page 3. Of course, if the ring is rusted, you may just want to live with it and go by the odometer... unless you do have to get a new tank.

http://rivperformance.editboard.com/interior-f20/fuel-tank-sending-unit-replacement-t4779.htm

As for your other points, yes, I'm pretty sure that the lines are 1-piece nylon from the top of the tank to the frame rail connections at the filter.

I've looked at the factory diagrams and can't tell for sure if there are any brackets on the top of the tank, but I doubt it... If you remove the brackets down below, and use your loose-strap idea, I think you've got a good chance of pulling them out. The only thing I think they could've done to queer the deal is strap all three lines together, and the vent line goes to a different part of the tank where it can't be disconnected until the tank is dropped...

All I can say is, "Good luck, Jim"
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duckstu
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 5:52 pm

Eldo wrote:
..........., don't worry about it. After all, you're going to have everything 'fuel' taken apart anyway... wink Read this thread to learn about the lame sending unit they attached to the fuel pump assembly on these cars. You can buy sending units only, not whole assemblies, but you also may be able to fix it with the method I posted on page 3. Of course, if the ring is rusted, you may just want to live with it and go by the odometer... unless you do have to get a new tank.

http://rivperformance.editboard.com/interior-f20/fuel-tank-sending-unit-replacement-t4779.htm?highlight=sending+unit "Good luck, Jim"



Thanks Jim.

ooof, I hope not.

I've had that sending unit out a few times to stop fuel from running out of it. I bought a new lock ring and gasket from the dealer, but the gasket the dealer sold me was an inch too big around. I went to a local auto-parts store and bought a universal gasket set for sending units.

But because of corrosion,..the tabs on the tank were borderline,...and I didn't know if they would hold the seal properly,...so the last time I put it back together I used some "Seal All" to help it out.

So now I'm loathe to take it back apart. Sigh!

Well, either I tackle the fuel lines tomorrow night or I can;t drive it cross country. So far I've put as much money in maintenance as the car's worth,...and I've only had it a month. If this car doesn't stop breaking soon,..I'll have to walk away from it. I'm fine with replacing things I break at the track, or things that wear out from use,...but this Riv is on some sort of mission.

.
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Eldo
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 6:11 pm

For what it's worth, I know the feeling. Sometimes I'm convinced that all things electrical or mechanical are out to get me...

Even on my Riv, which was a pristine 1-owner car that I've only put another 20,000 miles on in 5 years, (LINK), the first new Delco water pump I put on it started pissing in less than 5,000 miles... When we went back in to replace the 'cheap' Chinese Delco pump with the 'better' South American Delco pump, we found a small shaft leak on the otherwise well-functioning steering pump, so we replaced that. Not only are they a bitch to bleed, but the damn thing never had enough boost pressure, so I had to have that replaced a week later!

It's all symptomatic of the decline and fall of the USA as a technological and manufacturing power... frown

There's still a chance you can get those lines out and find the problem, and just ignore the gas gauge problem... If you can't, after reading about your previous adventures with the pump mount at the top of the tank and considering that this is a rather dangerous problem, I think the best thing to do is start searching the country for a "unsalted" tank and replace the whole bloody thing.
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duckstu
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 7:48 pm

Eldo wrote:
and considering that this is a rather dangerous problem, I think the best thing to do is start searching the country for a "unsalted" tank and replace the whole bloody thing.


Thanks for the sympathy Eldo.

Or option two,..I could drain the main tank and install a fuel cell. While that would reduce the dead-hooker capacity of the trunk from 7 to 5,.....I could get by. LOL

I may try replacing the horizontal front lower control arm bushings tonight. They came in today from Rock. I have the furnace on in the garage and my camera batteries are charged.

Speaking of Eldos,..I've had a few. A friend has a mint '64 vert in black. I really want a '60 vert though. Metalic silver/grey. Floating down the road in your own lether couch.

My last Eldo was a '77. Those were FWD, so there was no hump in the floor. Great car for going on a date. "Slide over here baby"
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Eldo
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 7:53 pm

duckstu wrote:


I may try replacing the horizontal front lower control arm bushings tonight. They came in today from Rock. I have the furnace on in the garage and my camera batteries are charged.

That will be interesting... There are so many opinions and FSM quotes on what is actually possible on the different years.
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Rickw
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 8:00 pm

Please post your results in the Front End section. Or create a new post for control arm bushing replacement.
Thanks
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robotennis61
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 8:03 pm

yeah! dont forget to measure the id for the horizontal bushings,i found a place that will fab em for $40 a piece...
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duckstu
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 9:14 pm

robotennis61 wrote:
yeah! dont forget to measure the id for the horizontal bushings,i found a place that will fab em for $40 a piece...

The ones that came are for '95 and '96 I'm guessing. Their OD is 52.08mm.

The holes in my '97 control arms are 60.68mm.

But I made them fit. (Well, one is done so far. One more to do. I'll post pics,...but it ain't pretty. Hint,,,,cut out old one leaving steel outer sleeve. Then weld smaller one into it. (As per FSM of course). Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Icon_lol

Somma a B ain't gettin the better of me. And I'm not in the mood to toss another $750 at this thing to solve just one of 20 whatever problems.
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Eldo
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 9:29 pm

duckstu wrote:

My last Eldo was a '77. Those were FWD, so there was no hump in the floor. Great car for going on a date. "Slide over here baby"

Yeah, they were virtually flat through '85, and in another thread recently I was
extolling the virtues of flat floors and bench seats for just such situations... wink

(They made working under the dash a helluva lot easier, too!)
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 6:05 pm

OK, I'm about to loose it. Seriously,...call me a priest,...this thing needs an exorcism.


So tonight I undo the fuel tank straps (major pain,...loosen part way, spray with WD40, tighten back in,...then repeat 20 times to keep from breaking the bolts.

So that's done, the tank is down an inch, and my arms are almost numb. So now I can look down the hole in the fender well and sideways in the trunk access pannel. The plastic fuel lines are dry (and straped to the tank along with the vent line).

So I decide to start the car and see if I can see fuel comming out somewhere. Low and behold,...it's comming out the fuel sending unit gasket where the yellow arrows are,....and only when the fuel pump is running.

The tank is almost empty.

How is this possible? It is definately not from the lines or the fittings where the lines attach to the sending unit. I watched that carefully.

It is just oozing out the gasket (it seems) where the arrows are.

Could there be an internal crack in the white plastic and the return fuel is leaking out the side?

Anyway,...O'Rilleys (who I don't care for) has one new sending unit (with fuel level sensor, gasket etc) in stock for $270,...so I'm heading up there now to buy it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pulls hair out.
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Fuelpumpleakedit


And here's a pic looking down the top of the tank,...from above the fuel sending unit and looking towards the drivers' side fender well.

You can see one of the straps in the foreground that holds the fuel lines to the tank. And just beyond that you can make out where the smaller hose from the gas cap goes. Instead of going straight into the tank, it runs along the tank and into a plastic fitting that faces foreward in the trench.
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Fueltanktop
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Eldo
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 9:24 pm

Hi Stu, hope you're still alive... GREAT pics, by the way. smile

That's a good price for a complete pump/sender assembly, and at this point (and with the worries about the locking ring) I think that replacing all the parts in one fell swoop is a good idea.

You'll probably be done by the time you read this, but I'm guessing that the pressure hose from the actual pump to the top of the assembly is cracked, spraying fuel against the gasket where it is leaking... Also, if you haven't installed the new part before you read this, I have a suggestion: To ensure that you don't have to go back in to fix the gauge anytime soon, read my post halfway down this page [LINK] and if there is ANY slop in the bushing that holds the float arm to the resistor-board bracket, make sure you have all the tension on the brush fingers that you can get before you install it...

Finally, a question/request for future generations on the forum:

Looking at the photo of the top of the tank and the little "crossbars" they put across the top of that trench to keep things in place, it looks like the hoses are not actually taped up and if it was necessary to change one of the liquid lines, the "pull-string idea" would have actually worked... Could you mess with them a bit before you hook 'em back up and see if that's the case? Puh-leeze bow
Oh, and don't forget to hose off the top of the tank before you button everything up again...

Mark
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Eldo
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 9:33 pm

Geez, I just noticed the fill-pipe clamp - It's a frickin' worm-drive rusting away!

I know this is a long-shot, and I'm sure you're just thrilled with all my advice by now, but if the suspension & tank straps will allow you to drop the tank until there's room to reach around from below, you might want to replace that clamp, too.

On the plus side, the fact that they put the filler in the center of the tank, instead of on the
left extremity, means the fill-pipe doesn't get loaded with fuel every time we make a right turn... sunny
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albertj
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 10:52 pm

Wow, Stu, I feel for you.

If there is any good news here it may be that the locking ring on that pump assembly is nmost likely *not* frozen in place. Might want to replace it anyway.

Albertj
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duckstu
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 10:55 pm

The fill pipe goes straight into the drivers' side of the tank. It's the smaller vent tube that you are seeing in the trench. Here's a pic of what it looks like in the drivers' side fender well with the access pannel removed.
These are the discontinued fuel filler tubes the OP started this thread about.
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Fillertubesgood


Here is a closeup into the access opening. That smaller hose on the right is the one that goes back into the tench. The main fill tube goes straight into the tank. All the hose connections are by SS hose clamps. They are rivited onto the hoses so they stay in place even when loose.

The wetness in this pic is from the WD40 that I sprayed on the clamps. You can see one of the rivets in this pic.
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Filltubes


The tank only drops down 1" with the straps removed. There is no way in the world to get a hand in there.

Thanks for the heads up on the sender. I'll check it out. I took the wife to a party tonight, so I haven't done the job yet. Maybe I'll do it now.


Last edited by duckstu on Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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duckstu
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 10:56 pm

albertj wrote:
Wow, Stu, I feel for you.

If there is any good news here it may be that the locking ring on that pump assembly is nmost likely *not* frozen in place. Might want to replace it anyway.

Albertj

I had replaced the lock ring and gasket recently. And the gasket the dealer sold me was the wrong one. So I had to buy a generic one.

The new sender assembly came with the correct one and some lube.
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 11:03 pm

damn dude! it looks like a archeological dig!
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duckstu
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 11:07 pm

Eldo wrote:
Finally, a question/request for future generations on the forum:
Looking at the photo of the top of the tank and the little "crossbars" they put across the top of that trench to keep things in place, it looks like the hoses are not actually taped up and if it was necessary to change one of the liquid lines, the "pull-string idea" would have actually worked... Could you mess with them a bit before you hook 'em back up and see if that's the case? Puh-leeze bow
Mark

Doing the string trick would be very difficult (not impossile I suppose).

There is more than one of those straps,...and I'm pretty sure I saw the hoses taped together in a couple areas. But a long set of needle nose and a razor blade would fix any tape issues easy enough.

But notice also that the hoses don't follow a straight path. As you can make out in the pic,...the trench makes a right hand turn about a foot from the pump. Pulling with a string would not get them in that trench or under the straps, or under the smaller filler hose. Perhaps if you used a string in combination with a stick (so as to help direct the lines where you wanted them), ....and you had small hands,...you could pull it off.

It won't be me trying it first though.

I'll take some more pics before I button it up.
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Eldo
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 11:10 pm

Thanks for documenting everything so well, Stu!

I never even realized that the metal fill-pipe was right there in the wheel well with nothing to protect it from salt - Genious!
What a great part to already be OOS (out of stock.) Or should I say SOL... confused

The riveted clamps are a revelation, too - Good idea. Too bad they made stainless clamps with non-stainless screws.

Once again, good luck! (I guess we need a fingers-crossed emoticon, too lol)
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Eldo
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 11:19 pm

duckstu wrote:
Eldo wrote:
Finally, a question/request for future generations on the forum:
Looking at the photo of the top of the tank and the little "crossbars" they put across the top of that trench to keep things in place, it looks like the hoses are not actually taped up and if it was necessary to change one of the liquid lines, the "pull-string idea" would have actually worked... Could you mess with them a bit before you hook 'em back up and see if that's the case? Puh-leeze bow
Mark

Doing the string trick would be very difficult (not impossible I suppose).

There is more than one of those straps,...and I'm pretty sure I saw the hoses taped together in a couple areas. But a long set of needle nose and a razor blade would fix any tape issues easy enough.

But notice also that the hoses don't follow a straight path. As you can make out in the pic,...the trench makes a right hand turn about a foot from the pump. Pulling with a string would not get them in that trench or under the straps, or under the smaller filler hose. Perhaps if you used a string in combination with a stick (so as to help direct the lines where you wanted them), ....and you had small hands,...you could pull it off.

If the hoses are taped together up on top, that would be a deal breaker...

I'm thinking, though, that the string ( better yet, a fuel-line-size rope stuck in the end of the new line & taped ) will be pulled through the trough and under the cross-straps when pulling the old line out from below... It might need 1 guy above & 1 below, but hopefully the new line would be pulled back in the right path. I know, another of those 'theoreticals' wink
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duckstu
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 19, 2009 11:25 pm

Eldo wrote:
Thanks for documenting everything so well, Stu!

I never even realized that the metal fill-pipe was right there in the wheel well with nothing to protect it from salt - Genious!
What a great part to already be OOS (out of stock.) Or should I say SOL... confused

The riveted clamps are a revelation, too - Good idea. Too bad they made stainless clamps with non-stainless screws.
\

Yeah right? Possibly it's galvanized,..but GM definately intended it to be disposable,..like pretty much the rest of the car.

And remember something about stainless,....it stains less. But it still stains (rusts). Enough time and salt and she's a gonner.
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 20, 2009 10:04 am

Took some pictures of the sending units. The newer one might be a better design.

Old and new
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Sendingunits

Closeup of the old fuel level sender.
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Senderold

Closeup of the new style (Airtex brand, Model E3938M, which is a division of Carter. The sender has a Carter sticker on the top.)
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Sendernew

And a shot of the side to show how they keep the arm steady so the contacts say on the rheostst.
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Senderbearingnew

Contacts, old (on the left) v.s. new (on right). The new style on the right is a much better design. I was able to pull the arm out 15 degrees or more and the contacts were still firmly on the rheostat.
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Contactscomparo
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 20, 2009 10:39 am

Thanks for the great photo's.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 20, 2009 10:59 am

Well it's back in,...went for a test drive,...no leaks. I filled it up (18.3 gallons) and the fuel gauge works.

But on the way home it just shut off. I coasted 1/4 mile to my street and turned off,..checked everything in the trunk (I hadn't reinstalled the inspection plate or put the carpet back yet),...and everything looked fine. It started right up and it drove the rest of the way back home.

Spooky. My wife and I are supposed to leave on a 1,500 mile road trip in the morning.

Here's a pic of it installed.

It came with a new gasket and a new pig-tail. It says to install the pig-tail if the origional connector has any melting inside. It says "The heat generated by a failed terminal will cause the plastic to melt into a spherical shape, or a blackening of the plastic will be evident. The location of this bad conection makes it impossible to diagnose using a voltage drop test" etc.

Anyway,..mine looked fine so I didn't use it. But after the car came to a stop,..I think I'll wire it in there before buttoning it up.
Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 Senderin
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 20, 2009 4:26 pm

Did you rule out a failing crank sensor yet?

If you do replace it please get a Delphi. The cheap ones have been known to fail early (~2 years)

Albertj
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