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Ghunter
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ODM Module Empty
PostSubject: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyWed Dec 16, 2009 10:27 am

95 SC Riv ran great then wont start. Ran dry gas (15 degrees out thought maybe froze) two days no luck . Yesterday I put it in the garage for the night and it fired right up. Drove it to have it scanned and they tell me the only code it showed referred to the output driver module. I have the factory shop manual but cant seem to find any info??. Parked it outside last night and this morning it wont start 17 degrees today. Is the ODM in the computer??? pls tell me what ya know headbutt
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyWed Dec 16, 2009 11:06 am

Suggest you test the battery - you want to know what capacity it has. You want to know how many cold crank amps it provides, and how many cranking amps (CCAs and CAs).

Riviera factory-spec batteries last a LONG time but not forever. The problem is that as they die you start to see various electric-related problems.

Worse, you don't know how old the ODM (whatever that is) code is.

So since it runs if you garage it, thing to do is clear the codes (or have them cleared).

Then here's the next problem: an "output driver module" is ambiguous without the specific code, "P123" or whatever. Reason is that you need to find out what items are being driven by the Output Driver that set the code. This code usually sets when there is a voltage fault on the particular Output Driver. This could be due to a bad relay or solenoid for whatever is being run off the driver. It also could be due to battery voltage/current sagging to the point where it is insufficient to drive a worn but good (within spec) relay or solenoid.

So without other information my guess is your code was thrown by the output driver for the starter relay, and your real problem is your battery is weak and needs to be replaced.

Since you have the FSM, that's great - but when you read those codes you need the specific code so you can look it up in your code tables for troubleshooting. there are a lot of output drivers in the Riv not just one.

Hope this helps.

Albertj


Quad/Output Driver Module:

The Control Module controls most components with electronic switches which complete a ground circuit when turned on.
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Ghunter
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyWed Dec 16, 2009 12:44 pm

Thank you kindly for your input and time thats a mouth full.....
I did have the charger on it when it started!! you may be on to something the battery is newer but ya never know .I hate battery trouble but I LOVE WARRANTIES. I will let ya know
Thanks again..
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyWed Dec 16, 2009 12:59 pm

Ghunter wrote:
Thank you kindly for your input and time thats a mouth full.....
I did have the charger on it when it started!! you may be on to something the battery is newer but ya never know .I hate battery trouble but I LOVE WARRANTIES. I will let ya know
Thanks again..

If it's not the factory spec battery - then even if it is good you need to replace it and put the vent tubes on or else the acid fumes will eat out the floor under your seat.

Warning - this may not fix your problem, there are other reasons to do it.

Just a note: Riv has fairly high parasitic drain when parked. Factory spec battery, fully charged, will take that drain for a pretty long time. Your FSM or owner manual should show the correct battery, and you should be able to get it for less than $100 at larger AutoZone or Wal Mart stores.

Again - please clear the codes and see if they come back. You may need to get a code reader, a little tough for your OBD 1.5 but do-able. Check eBay.



Albertj
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Ghunter
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyWed Dec 16, 2009 1:21 pm

wants to fire bad right now. I have good spark at the coil packs. and fires but wont run I have the charger on it now and I was showing a draw on the battery with a meter earlier today. If it starts with a hot battery I will head to auto zone to test and pick up a new one. The right one!!!!

Thanks again I will keep ya posted,
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Ghunter
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyWed Dec 16, 2009 1:38 pm

It started but not willingly.. spit and sputter then ran terrible for 30 seconds or so then cleared up and is now running fine. Plugs and wires are the normal go to but I just dont want to throw money at the wrong thing. I will scan again and go from there and hve the battery checked out.
Its my sons car he just turned 16, had it painted and all that now it does not want to run.
Thanks again
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Ghunter
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyWed Dec 16, 2009 2:14 pm

took it for a spin and it ran great starts rite up and all is well??? after the ride I had 12.68 volts this morning I had12.06 The battery is coming out
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyWed Dec 16, 2009 3:12 pm

I hope you do not end up pulling and replacing a bunch of unnecessary stuff.

By the way, many GM dealers sell the battery for the Riv (I think it's group 79R or some such) for not much more than what AZ or WalMart sell them for, you *might* want to phone a dealer or 2 and ask price.

Also it occurred to me that you might want to look further into what is *your* Riv's parasitic load. If there are aftermarket electricals installed they may be a problem. That is, as equipped at the factory the Riv load when parked is pretty high--add some stuff that was not in the car as designed and the problem can be bigger.

Another source of load is cell phone charger dongles. Might want to unplug 'em when you park, you'd be surprised how much draw they have even when there is no phone.

Albertj
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GMFreak8
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ODM Module Empty
PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyThu Dec 17, 2009 6:17 pm

Ghunter wrote:
took it for a spin and it ran great starts rite up and all is well??? after the ride I had 12.68 volts this morning I had12.06 The battery is coming out

I doubt it's your battery. If you have spark and ignition, but it's just running like crap or not wanting to start then it's gotta be fuel or air delivery that's screwing up. It sounds like a similar situation to what I had with two other 3800 cars I've owned. Both involved the throttle body. I cleaned the throttle body with some cleaner every month or so and they both would run great. If I let it go for a few months it would do the exact same thing that you're describing. It would start right up sometimes and then other times you could crank the thing and it wouldn't run.

Will the car start if you turn the key while pumping the gas? I know, I know, you shouldn't do this a lot of people will say with fuel injected cars, but it seems to unstick the throttle body and allow the car to start. It doesn't hurt as long as you don't pump it thirty times.

I'm betting anything it's your throttle body sticking. These love to do that, especially when it starts getting cold. The only other major no start issues with these are coil packs, and you've already ruled that out.
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyThu Dec 17, 2009 10:46 pm

GMFreak8 wrote:
Ghunter wrote:
took it for a spin and it ran great starts rite up and all is well??? after the ride I had 12.68 volts this morning I had12.06 The battery is coming out

I doubt it's your battery. If you have spark and ignition, but it's just running like crap or not wanting to start then it's gotta be fuel or air delivery that's screwing up. It sounds like a similar situation to what I had with two other 3800 cars I've owned. Both involved the throttle body. I cleaned the throttle body with some cleaner every month or so and they both would run great. If I let it go for a few months it would do the exact same thing that you're describing. It would start right up sometimes and then other times you could crank the thing and it wouldn't run.

Will the car start if you turn the key while pumping the gas? I know, I know, you shouldn't do this a lot of people will say with fuel injected cars, but it seems to unstick the throttle body and allow the car to start. It doesn't hurt as long as you don't pump it thirty times.

I'm betting anything it's your throttle body sticking. These love to do that, especially when it starts getting cold. The only other major no start issues with these are coil packs, and you've already ruled that out.

Hmmm.... this makes a lot of sense. Was trying to figure out why I've never had this issue at similar temps - and I suspect is due to periodically removing and cleaning the MAF and throttle body for maintenance. I don't have my maintenance log right here but I figure I've only done it twice as long as I've owned the car. The trigger for me is when I notice the idle starting to "hunt" around. If I am idling in gear or in neutral, if I notice the idle move +/- 50 or 100 RPM then I will make note to clean the MAF and TB. You should need "tamperproof" TORX bits to do the R&R unless someone before you changed fasteners. The FSM will help if only to tell you what to watch for in cleaning.

Basically what you do is pull off the air intake duct, then remove the snap ring from the TB. You have to open the throttle valve and look at all the surfaces; you'll find the dirt and gums. Clean things up using a TB cleaner - be sure it DOES NOT contain Methyl Ethyl Ketone else you'll damage part of the intake system. Oh and using the TB cleaner - what you do is put some on a clean shop towel (like those red ones the parts store sells, they don't leave a lot of lint and stuff) and wipe it out. The dirtier it is the more towels you will go through. When you are satisfied it's clean, reassemble the TB.

If you have a good relationship with a GM dealer and the parts counter gives you price breaks consider getting the cleaner from them it's P/N 1052626. *it is a liquid not a spray* List is $14 the can, see if you can get it for less. Otherwise the cleaners at AutoZone, Carquest, NAPA etc. are very similar - just make sure you don't get a cleaner that contains the ketone.

You can clean the TB better if you remove it - but then you will need a replacement gasket. Not a big deal, just advice. I don't know if they still do so, but some pro mechanics used to remove the sensors from the TB then soak it in the cleaner. That's the ticket if you can do it/have it done.

Albertj


Happy cleaning.
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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyThu Dec 17, 2009 11:31 pm

OK, so you've got good spark unless the timing is off, but that should show a cam or crank code... It starts fine when it's warm...

Does the MAF even come into play in open loop mode? How about a fuel pump that doesn't like the cold, or a fuel pump speed control module? Can you hear it running normally when you cycle the key on a cold morning?
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Ghunter
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 6:58 am

I replaced the tps and Mass Air flow.no luck the throttle body clean will be next and it is sticking a little bit. The TPS sensor plug was very brittle and cracked what are your thoughts in splicing in a new one??
it fires when you first hit the key and dies and wont start after that. it seems like timing to me or at least acts like it .
I have a running donor car and have all the parts I could possibly need to fix it but cant seem to get it right. Thanks for the advice Ill keepyou posted.
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 9:20 am

Can't think of why the TPS plug was brittle to begin with.

As far as replacing it goes, a dealer *could* do it - what's needed is just a new connector of the same type and the terminals out of the wiring kit. GM makes dealers but all that stuff & I can't say they are used much. The rub, however, is that many if not most mechanics are not fond of working on electricals.

You will, however, be able to get the terminal from RockAuto.Com then splice it onto the wiring harness with crimps. It will run you $22 or less. If I were you I'd call a local auto parts store that sells to local mechanics (around here it'd be NAPA or CarQuest; the local AutoValue has most of the fleet mechanic accounts and the local AutoZone sells mostly to the "economy" trade). When you call them ask for a pigtail that has the connector on it that you can splice into the wiring harness. The GM number for that connector for a '98 is 88862272.

This reminds me of when my crank sensor and fuel pump quit back-to-back. That was frustrating and expensive (time wise).

Albertj
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Ghunter
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 11:51 am

today it starts after letting it sit with ign on for a bit ran good as always once warmed up and no more check engine light?? fun fun the real suck part is it wont act up until morning now
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 1:01 pm

Greg: please recap for us what you've done to the car so far to fix the problems.

Albertj
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 1:11 pm

I had a TPS sensor connector go bad on my previous Cadilac and ultimately led to a TPS Sensor failure because moisture was allowed to ingress into the connector and shorted out the sensor.
Now adays I notice the WeatherPack connectors for the TPS's are available at all the auto parts stores without having to go to the dealer.
They are not expensive and if yours is indeed dry rotted I would replace it by cutting and soldering in the connections or you can purchase the crimp type connectors that have solder and sealant in them. After you crimp them with a normal crimp tool you just have to put heat to them and they seal permanently.
They are about a buck a piece, but worth it for under the hood applications.
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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 2:58 pm

I don't see an answer to my previous question. Did you listen to the fuel pump this morning? A quick start and then die would be another symptom of a frozen pump that isn't starting right up and supplying fuel after the first light-off depletes the pressure in the line...
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GMFreak8
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ODM Module Empty
PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 6:14 pm

Eldo wrote:
I don't see an answer to my previous question. Did you listen to the fuel pump this morning? A quick start and then die would be another symptom of a frozen pump that isn't starting right up and supplying fuel after the first light-off depletes the pressure in the line...

Yeah that would be the next thing I look at. I still say it has to do with the throttle body. I had two 3800 cars with the Series 1 engine in them. Combined mileage on the two would be in the 800,000 mile range. In this time I've become almost an expert on diagnosing and fixing no start issues. Not blowing my own horn or anything, but from what he's describing it's gotta be a sticky throttle body, or a fuel pump/filter issue. Both these will cause what he's describing and both these tend to start happening when the temps start dropping. Nice thing about the series 1 3.8 engines are they are relatively simple to work on compared to the series II with the more advanced electronics.
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GMFreak8
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ODM Module Empty
PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 6:20 pm

albertj wrote:
GMFreak8 wrote:
Ghunter wrote:
took it for a spin and it ran great starts rite up and all is well??? after the ride I had 12.68 volts this morning I had12.06 The battery is coming out

I doubt it's your battery. If you have spark and ignition, but it's just running like crap or not wanting to start then it's gotta be fuel or air delivery that's screwing up. It sounds like a similar situation to what I had with two other 3800 cars I've owned. Both involved the throttle body. I cleaned the throttle body with some cleaner every month or so and they both would run great. If I let it go for a few months it would do the exact same thing that you're describing. It would start right up sometimes and then other times you could crank the thing and it wouldn't run.

Will the car start if you turn the key while pumping the gas? I know, I know, you shouldn't do this a lot of people will say with fuel injected cars, but it seems to unstick the throttle body and allow the car to start. It doesn't hurt as long as you don't pump it thirty times.

I'm betting anything it's your throttle body sticking. These love to do that, especially when it starts getting cold. The only other major no start issues with these are coil packs, and you've already ruled that out.

Hmmm.... this makes a lot of sense. Was trying to figure out why I've never had this issue at similar temps - and I suspect is due to periodically removing and cleaning the MAF and throttle body for maintenance. I don't have my maintenance log right here but I figure I've only done it twice as long as I've owned the car. The trigger for me is when I notice the idle starting to "hunt" around. If I am idling in gear or in neutral, if I notice the idle move +/- 50 or 100 RPM then I will make note to clean the MAF and TB. You should need "tamperproof" TORX bits to do the R&R unless someone before you changed fasteners. The FSM will help if only to tell you what to watch for in cleaning.

Basically what you do is pull off the air intake duct, then remove the snap ring from the TB. You have to open the throttle valve and look at all the surfaces; you'll find the dirt and gums. Clean things up using a TB cleaner - be sure it DOES NOT contain Methyl Ethyl Ketone else you'll damage part of the intake system. Oh and using the TB cleaner - what you do is put some on a clean shop towel (like those red ones the parts store sells, they don't leave a lot of lint and stuff) and wipe it out. The dirtier it is the more towels you will go through. When you are satisfied it's clean, reassemble the TB.

If you have a good relationship with a GM dealer and the parts counter gives you price breaks consider getting the cleaner from them it's P/N 1052626. *it is a liquid not a spray* List is $14 the can, see if you can get it for less. Otherwise the cleaners at AutoZone, Carquest, NAPA etc. are very similar - just make sure you don't get a cleaner that contains the ketone.

You can clean the TB better if you remove it - but then you will need a replacement gasket. Not a big deal, just advice. I don't know if they still do so, but some pro mechanics used to remove the sensors from the TB then soak it in the cleaner. That's the ticket if you can do it/have it done.

Albertj


Happy cleaning.

Exactly how I clean it. I was amazed how dirty it was when I first cleaned it.

If you don't wanna freeze in the cold trying to clean it right away, the easiest thing to do is start it while pressing the gas peddle, and just keep feathering it until it warms up. Be prepared for a few stalls outs though if you don't get the timing right and take off too soon. Nothing like turning a large car with no power steering, popping it into neutral, restarting it, pressing the gas peddle all while trying to keep an eye on traffic and doing all this at the same time. lol Oh how I miss those cars.
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Ghunter
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptySun Dec 20, 2009 2:07 pm

TPS Mas air flow seafoam intake and gas tank so far so good. thanks to all who had advice
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Ghunter
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyTue Jan 26, 2010 1:23 pm

albert its been a while. Now its acting up again new tps ,mass air, coils plugs and wires tonight and egr yesterday. starts right up but seems to only hit on 5 of 6 cyl.
It vibrates pretty good when it drops into overdrive.
last scan shows quad driver failure???? and nuber two cyl misfire changed number two plug and wire. ran fine for a while but still have check enigine light and vibration.
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyTue Jan 26, 2010 2:26 pm

whose coils/plugs/wires?

ck engine light has to be cleared or else it will stay on for a while...

you sure you did not crack a plug on install (I doubt it but it has happened)?

do tell.

Albertj
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyTue Jan 26, 2010 8:26 pm

Have you done anything to address the Quad driver Failure.?
Which Quad Driver, does it say or have a specific code for it.?

Also, I forget but what year is it.? Please fill out some Sig info, it helps.
Edit: Went back and looked at first post, it says 95SC.

Anyone know what the 95 PCM's have for Quad Drivers and how many? I'm not really up to speed on these. Need to do some more reading. Possible info on-line or elsewhere.!!!!

Do Some Reading Here:
www.troublecodes.net/articles/quaddriver.shtml

Some troubleshooting is in order before replacing the PCM and damaging the replacement.

The above article explains the generic use of Quad drivers in the PCM. The only problem with getting the information from the ALDL is the 95 has an OBD2 port, so you cant use the jumper method on the pins for any flash codes. Need to do some more reading.
I have re-read some of the previous posts and realize you have the FSM, but it's not giving you the info you need.
Maybe someone with access to AllData for the 95 or Mitchell On-Demand for the 95 can help.

A little more info from Google:
Q:
My ‘92 Saturn SL 1.9L SOHC TBI check engine code shows a
quad driver module problem. The Saturn dealer says the Quad driver is
inside the computer. Luckily, a friend has an identical Saturn. We
swapped computers, but the problem did not move to his car, and my car
still has the same fault with his computer, What gives!

- Larry McNeely
A:
Just
because you have a Quad driver code doesn’t mean the Quad driver is
bad. All a Quad driver code means is that an expected value is not
present when it’s suppose to be. Also a Quad driver is a techy name for
4 on-off switches arranged in a group, hence the name Quad driver. The
computer watches the voltage values on each switch and knows that if
the switch is on, a voltage value will be seen. When the switch is off
the opposite voltage value will be seen. Simply put, light on, light
off. So what can set a quad driver code? You’d be surprised. How
about a bad bulb? How about a bad fuse? The answer is yes to both
questions. Yes, a bad bulb or failed fuse can set a Quad driver code.
Start with checking your fuses. There can be up to 3 fuses that supply
power to circuits controlled by the Quad drivers. If the fuses are good
the next check would be of all or some of the following, depending on
how your vehicle is equipped: Up shift light bulb, coolant hot bulb,
shift to drive bulb, A/C relay, coolant fan relay, EGR solenoid,
Canister Purge solenoid, even a speedometer output signal goes to one of
the switches on the Quad driver. I guess what I’m saying is, that it
is unlikely you have a computer problem. It’s more likely that the Quad
driver code is present because the computer is not seeing the
information that it expects to see at one of the switches.


Last edited by Rickw on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyTue Jan 26, 2010 10:43 pm

albertj wrote:
you sure you did not crack a plug on install (I doubt it but it has happened)? Albertj
It is actually quite easy to crack a plug on install without knowing it. I've seen it happen many times on the 3800.
Very easy to do and nothing to be ashamed of.

As Albert already asked, what manufacturer and heat range plugs did you use and what mfg wires, etc.
It makes a difference in a number of ways.
Some plugs crack easier than others on install and an inexpensive set of wires or the incorrect wires along with the incorrect heat range or gap on plugs for the SC engine can cause problems. A bad plug will stress a poorly constructed ignition wire over a short period of time and cause a misfire situation for example.
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Ghunter
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PostSubject: Re: ODM Module   ODM Module EmptyWed Jan 27, 2010 10:21 am

I'll keep on keepin on with this car . Thanks for all the info guys you have been very kind with your help, thanks again..
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