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 Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite

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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:28 am

I won't take it to the place that left the paper in the motor to flush it. I wouldn't get any sleep worrying about them hooking one line to the engine and one to trans. by mistake. They charged me $63 for spark plugs and only put 3 in, they left the ones for the rear bank on seat and said I should put them in. They replaced the coolant sensor when they replaced the Lim gasket, sensor worked fine before and they gave no explanation.

If I need repairs in future I heard from friend there is a good shop in next county. I'll try to do as much myself as possible though.

I have used, drained, and strained the current oil twice already, it still looks clean and clear yellow in color. The motor is clean of everything but paper. The flush machine would be great for sludge, don't know about paper. Unless the flush machine pumps a higher volume or pressure through the motor I don't see it removing more paper. They might throw a fit if the paper clogs there machine too.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:13 am

Its a car part now wrote:
They charged me $63 for spark plugs and only put 3 in, they left the ones for the rear bank on seat and said I should put them in.

That's downright pathetic, totally unprofessional... I suppose, though, you're lucky they didn't charge you for the time they would have taken to do the rears - If someone is going to take an hour & a half to do them, it might as well be you, for free.

What kind of plugs did they use? The rears are such a bitch, you want to go with the Iridiums that Delco superceded the original double-tipped platinums with, or maybe the Motorcraft plugs that still come in double-tip.

By the way, when you get around to replacing them, get the heater hoses out of your way by just removing the metal pipes from the engine instead of trying to get the hoses off the pipes... Clean & lube the O-rings with clean coolant before putting them back in.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:37 am

I was reading this thread right before bed and the "truth" dawned on me

The tech that did you LIM left a entire roll of paper towels in the valley...
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:05 pm

They are ac delco, not sure which one. I had replaced the plugs last year with autolite.

I seems like its a whole roll, I hope its not. If I have to pull the manifold I'll know if i see the cardboard tube the towels came on.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:21 pm

When you do have a video camera running for the entire dissemble getting any close ups of the mechanics "signatures" like the application of silicone so you can show it back to them and demand a refund
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:43 pm

I have left a wrench in my dirt track car intake valley, fortunately it caused no troubles and was found upon end of season teardown.

Have you been saving the goo you have been pulling out?
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:47 pm

I have been putting the paper pulp in a mason jar. I have all the oil I drained in containers. I was going to strain it before putting it in 5gal bucket to transport to waste oil drop off. I know there is more paper in the old oil, i saw the stream bulge while it drained.

The oil is starting to be darker when I drain it. It looks like I can drain, strain and refill 3 times before it starts getting to dirty to put back in. That is 1/3 the amount I need to buy at least.

When I cleaned the top of the windage tray today there was less then I expected, based on the amount in pan bottom. It was mostly on the pickup and bottom of pan when i drove it, and mostly on top of screen when I idled it on jackstands. The higher rpm moved where it accumulated, not raised the amount knocked loose as I had initially thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:03 pm

I ran the engine at idle on jackstands for about hour and forty five minutes. The pressure at idle started out at about 55psi as the engine warmed the pressure eventually dropped to 42psi. The idle speed was down to about 760rpm.

The engine was hotter then normal operating temps, could see the heat distortion in air over hood. The coolant moved between 205 and 218 as fans kicked in(dealer took out 180drilled and put in stock apparently). The IAT hit a peak of 173 degrees with 37degree ambient. I'll have to get a new thermostat and FWI before summer, wouldn't want to see iat at 95f ambient.

I'll have to drop pan to clean pickup in morning. It is either relativly clean or won't clog unless the rpm needs to be high to knock paper down to pan, based on oil pressure staying up and steady for so long.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:07 pm

FYI, even with a 180 thermostat at some point the cooling system will reach the fan on temp and the fans will be your new thermostat. The only way to tell is where the temp settles out at cruise.

Sounds like you got it all, hopefully you don't have any long term issues, but at least you know the possibility is there. The only long term issues I can think of is the smaller oil passages, such as the lifters, and possible bearing damage from scoring from the paperish stuff being forced through. Hopefully none of that happens, but you won't be surprised in 3 years when you develop rod knock or something.

Thanks for sharing your ordeal with us, glad to hear you are near it's end!
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:50 pm

I had a drilled 180 high flow from zzp in it before. I think the higher flow helped keep it cool more then the opening point. I rarely saw the temp above 182 or so, even when idling in driveway. It would normally raise to 182 or so then drop and stay right at 180. It would go up a little if idling for a minute at long light or train crossing, coasting down hill it would drop a few degrees lower. I'am sure if I idled it 1h45m I still would have hit fan turn on, but the raise would have been slower with the increased flow. The stock temp thermostat was hitting 205F going 55mph down highway before oil light came on.

I was more freaked out by the IAT hitting 173, With temps like that it could almost use an intercooler n/a. rotf A lot cheaper and more effective to put a FWI back on. N/a intercooled would be funny though.

oil pressure spec is 60psi @ 1850 rpm with 10w30 at operating temp.
I was using 5w30, probably well over operating temp at >1/2 that rpm, so I assume the pressure is about right? I tried to rev it it 1850, but couldn't keep the rpm constant long enough for gauge to stabilize with out going over/below a few hundred rpm. Would be easier to check going steady speed down road.

Come to think of it, probably shouldn't rev it on jack stands at all, may mess something up, especially in park.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:47 pm

Are you using a regular air box right now? If so, have you removed the red restrictor from the lid? Running on stands you're gonna' get heat soak no matter what, but that red piece really isolates the IAT sensor from the airflow...

With the FWI, where do you mount the IAT sensor?
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:41 pm

I had a FWI made with modular parts. I just shortened the intake by removing some sections, filter is now 6" from Throttle body. The IAT is mounted in one of the elbows, well now the only elbow. The filter is now drawing in hot air from under hood.

I was putting on one of those water repellent pre-filters after it ingested some water through the FWI, and a plastic flange cracked. It was a custom modified part, so I couldn't just replace it.

So I temporarily have a hot air intake, plan to get FWI fixed as soon as paper is out of oil. Excellent example of why not to do as a mod, computer pulled 6 degrees of timing just from temp(coolant and intake together), combined with power lose from temp I'm probably making power like the 3.0l v6 from the eighties. No KR being a n/a motor still so I shouldn't damage anything.

The filter will have a splash screen, water repellent pre-filter and A.E.M. bypass valve to keep water out. Same valve part# as this magazine test http://www.modified.com/tech/0104scc_aem_air_bypass_valve/index.html . Before the filter was exposed to the tire splash, most of inner fender was cut away, still had no issues for about a year. With three different fixes to the problem is should have plenty of redundancy built in. The new flange will be made of much thicker plastic, or metal if I can find a suitable part, that hopefully won't crack next time I try to take it off.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:25 am

I drove it around a few Laps around town, maybe1.2-2 miles. It made a bit of noise I assume was cavitation and pressure dropped about 15psi. When I dropped pan there was still alot on the pickup. It seems to be able to go alot longer when not moving, then clogs once in drive. frown
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:33 am

Are you getting to the point that you think your almost done or are you ready to pull the intake and see if you can find the source.???
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:47 am

Rickw wrote:
Are you getting to the point that you think your almost done or are you ready to pull the intake and see if you can find the source.???

I fear the LIM being removed again is the only cure, I am not so worried about the paper getting around or stuck in the passage ways, its the repeated low pressure that is the real worry.

So far you have most likely no residual damage but the worry and time you will spend fishing this crap out trip after trip will eventually take its toll.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:54 am

I have a larger screen and bucket for the straining, it was taking to long. It started snowing this afternoon while I was cleaning the pickup.


I think I am going to pull off the lim to clean the lifter valley of paper. It is taking to long to wash it out. There seems to be paper in the valve covers or past the pickup screen. So the passages in block should be clean. I have cleaned the bottom end several times already. That just leaves the lifter valley and timing cover for where the paper could be coming from.

I am hoping the paper hasn't gotten in the timing cover, would be a pain to take off. The FSM says it is splash oiled, but doesn't say where the splashes come from, not sure if the passenger side oil drain of valley goes there, or if it comes from the cam and balance shaft bearings at that end. If it is from the valley drain I'll try cleaning it with rifle brush or something through drain hole.

From what I could find online the upper and lower intake gaskets should be reuse-able since it has just under 15miles on it from when they where put on. The injector o-rings should be fine also. The top ones won't be moved and the bottom ones would leak vacuum not gasoline if not perfect seal. I found a site that said to lube them with motor oil when reusing.

I'll replace the fuel filter while the pressure is drained, it's probably over due. Found the part number for the hi-flow filter, it is a dollar cheaper then the stock part# at Wal*Mart. I just had to look up a 5.3l flex fuel trailblazer filter.

Hopefully, once the valley is cleaned there will be no more paper, if there is I guess I'll just have to pull off the timing cover.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:08 am

Not likely to be a formation in the timing cover as there is alot of oil sling from the chain and filtered oil flowing from the front cam bearing behind the chain to wash it away, just focus on the documentation while removing the LIM to get the rest of the paper towels out.

Injector o rings will be fine with motor oil provided the original tech didnt scrape them on his install, intake gaskets will have to be your decision, sometimes overuse of sealer will catch the soft part of the gasket and pull it off like spaghetti, take it very slow to prevent this.

ALTHOUGH , I would think with proper photo/video documentation you should not only get a refund for your original job but if handled carefully you may have opportunity to submit some sort of bill for your oil, gaskets and such...
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:11 am

The pressure hasn't been getting that low since the gauge was put on. When I shut it down for cleaning it is still higher then a 3.1L or small block would be at that rpm.

The times the light came before the gauge was on on may have done some damage. It seems good so far at least. I put STP in the oil I was screening and reusing. I figured the ZDDP(zinc di??something?? phosphate) in it would help when the pressure dropped. I Kept hand on the key while staring at where the light would be afraid to blink while it was running.

I'll put good synthetic back in it as soon as the paper is gone. I have always gone by the rule don't use dino blood unless you hate the engine, and in that case why change the oil at all?

If it acts up in few months, putting in a new used motor in the spring will probably seem relatively easy, after all this in the snow, slush, and ice. And cheaper then what the dealer charged for gaskets, LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:24 am

If the oil is coming from the cam bearing, happy dance no need to remove it! Paper that won't go through the pickup screen defiantly can't make it through the bearing. I didn't know where the oil came from, no good pictures in FSM or that I could find with Google. I haven't seen a 3800 with the manifold off in about a year so I couldn't remember where any of the oil drained.

I don't have a video camera, but I'll take lots of stills. I'm not going to get my hopes up though.

If the LIM gasket tears I still have the aluminum from ZZP they said won't fit a 3800. It fit the spare lower intake I was going to port fine. The injector 0-rings where replaced when they did the LIM gasket, and a week before when they did the UIM gasket. If one or more are messed up I'll just order them from ZZP, if local parts stores don't have them in stock.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:24 am

ZDDP is only a useful additive for cars with flat lifters. We have roller lifters, so ZDDP additive is not useful.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:33 am

Short term use will have no adverse effects, it cant hurt!
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:45 am

It is only normally only needed in large amounts for flat tappet cams, 1200ppm+. It is used in smaller amounts in oils for other engines, max 800ppm with new oil standard. It is also used in some atf fluids. Cat TDTO has 1200ppm in it, and it is a trans-hydraulic. It is used used in some gear oil and grease, moly is more common though.

There is a lot in assembly lube, that is close to the idea I had for using it. I had thought it may help reduce damage on bearings when pressure drops, won't do much of anything when pressure is up. It only works when the oil film brakes down and the metal contacts, this normally happens on the flat tappet cams. I was not worried about wear on the cam lobes because even with no pressure the lifter is still rolling rather then sliding.

It is also used as a rust inhibitor. I don't think that would have been a problem though.

I think the converter is probably coated with gunk already anyway. I pumped a couple gallons of anti-freeze out the tail pipe when upper intake went. the oil never went milky, but it made cloud of smoke out the tail pipe, you could smell the anti-freeze in the fumes.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:09 pm

Its a car part now wrote:
There is a lot in assembly lube, that is close to the idea I had for using it. I had thought it may help reduce damage on bearings when pressure drops, won't do much of anything when pressure is up.

Okay, that makes sense. It certainly won't harm anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:06 am

I was off work today and tackled removing the lower intake manifold.
It was shop rags, some still had intact strips.


little stuck to bottom of lim too.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:43 am

holy f..k!!! i would go ape shit!
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