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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:28 am

I went to dealer with piece of cloth(its cloth rags ,not paper towels) from balance shaft, and some of the above photos. They saw the shreds and said the mechanic must have left towels in the motor, before I had had even said anything. They asked for bill for what I spent so far cleaning. There going to clean it, and I'm under impression that the the bill for the prior work will be refunded. They are going to talk to there bosses and I'll find out tomorrow. Gaskets on uim and lim looked reusable, but if there reassembling it it'll be with new gaskets anyway. I'll just have to reassemble so it can be towed to dealer.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:42 am

great job friend. its so nice to deal with understanding businesses.
the mechanic who f....d up owes you and everyone u know dinner and movie.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:55 am

OMG thats the biggest F*$k up I have ever seen!, How many rags do you estimate were there?
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:22 am

Holy Crap! 0_0

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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:47 am

I wonder if the mechanic did that on purpose?

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:21 am

The tech could have done plenty of other things to mess up the car, my vote is its a mistake.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:45 am

98inSFl wrote:
The tech could have done plenty of other things to mess up the car, my vote is its a mistake.
What a mistake!!!!
I've done a few intake manifolds in my day and how could you possibly not see that many rags in the valley before you put the manifold back down.?
It baffles the mind.!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:39 am

In a rush I have left tools in there before as well as finding other peoples tools in valleys ov V8 chevys.

Fortunately in my case it was my dirt track racecar , yes I was in a hurry and no damage was found after a season running with tools.

If i remember correctly this was done at the F@*d dealership, obviously this car was outside the techs comfort zone and he made a boo boo
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:56 am

I'm sorry, not to be argumentative but, A valley is a valley.
I don't care what make car your working on. Before putting the intake back on you have to carefully put down the gaskets and sealant, there is a very good opportunity then to see 10 lbs of red rags in the valley.
Then when you go to the bench and pick up the intake to place it on the gasket's it must be done delicately, to a degree, so as not to move the gaskets. At that point you are looking right in the valley again.
This was not a wrench or some other tool that might have been small enough to overlook or the color would blend in.
This was a huge amount of RED rags. I don't know how it could have been missed, obviously it was but I don't think this "mechanic" should have a job after making such a bonehead mistake.

After seeing that many rags and considering how abrasive they could be, I would be requesting the engine be removed and sent to a machine shop for a tear-down, inspection and rebuild. I don't see how they can deny that. I wouldn't be comfortable with allowing them to do a half-assed teardown. Most dealerships do not have their own internal machine shop.
Those rags had to get shredded and travel quite a way through any and all ports and passages possible to end up in the oil pan. And after having collected and saved the pound or so of material that came out the bottom end, you have an even stronger case with documentation that this engine has gone through hell. It doesn't take much to score bearings, machined surfaces, the oil pump itself, etc.

I wouldn't settle for just a cleaning. Just ask any mechanic or machinist if they would trust this engine after just a cleaning!!!


Last edited by Rickw on Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:16 pm

Rickw wrote:
Also need to check the Catalytic Converter, there is an extremely good chance that it has been contaminated and possibly clogged, at the least partially clogged. And it may not surface as a serious problem until later down the road when they can deny you any compensation.

I don't see any way for this stuff to get in the combustion path. I wouldn't be worried about the cat. This is strictly a problem with the oiling system.

Otherwise, the shop should be 100% responsible for your motor at this point. Even to the point of having it rebuilt if you could show any oil pressure damage on the bearings. I really think the engine needs to be torn down and flushed to remedy the situation at this point, and they should take care of it.

Sounds like they are ready to do the right thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:06 pm

Or swap in an engine that's already been rebuilt (by someone else...), there are good sources of well-rebuilt 3800SC engines.

As for the mecahnic, it depends. If a person of good character who could explain why that mistake was honestly made, if he worked for me I'd require within 10 days a presentation to the other mechanics about why this happened and what work steps to prevent it in the future. If the mistake arose from a personality problem, my best move might be to terminate the person from work so that they have the time and motivation to focus on dealing with their personality issues while on unemployment. If from a character problem (they stuck the rags in for grins and giggles), I'd have to figure out why I hired them in the first place and change my standards - whether I also terminate their employment is an important but separate issue.

Being a Ford dealer is neither reason nor excuse. In a previous life, I ran conferences - some participants would drive in from some distance, and being college professors they were kind of high maintenance in a manner of speaking. I had a 'gentleman's agreement' with a local Lincoln-Mercury dealer to work on cars I sent them as a matter of priority - I did not take a commission or discount for this, but no kidding if the car had my name on it as referral it got fixed ASAP and no discussion. Worked out great. But why that dealer? Well, they were near a major airport and the owner also owned a local franchise of a national rental car company, and used the dealership to maintain the cars. Consequenlty, this Lincoln dealer's shop worked (successfully) on just about any vehicle that would fit on one of their lifts. They did superb work at a fair price (at least, fair enough considering they were a new car dealer).

I remember one Buick I sent them where the brakes had been mis-assembled (by the techs at their local Buick dealer that sold it) - the car owner, a professor, was a handful. He'd tried to get a nearby Buick dealer (not the one that sold it, as he's now ~200 miles from home) to take the car, they would not, and he was livid. After some, ahem, negotiation I got his OK to take the car to my guys, who fixed it that morning and gave them documentation (I think Polaroid pictures) to recover their substantial repair charge from their local Buick dealer. Professor's spouse was thrilled. "if we ever move to this area, this is the dealership we are coming to" sort of thing and she and the kids got to do the museum viist they planned, just a couple hours later than scheduled. The professor was still grumbling that evening - to which I said "You tried to line up a repair and failed. The upshot of all this is your car is reparied right and you have enough documentation to sue the Buick dealer in small claims if you have to. Your spouse and kids got to the museum and had a great time. I think your next move is to get compensation from the folks who messed up the car in the first place. "

My point is that every dealer is different, have to reckon them one by one.

That said, I'm glad our colleague from Illinois Valley was able to pull the IM and account for an accident that should never, ever have happened. There is a reason those shop rags are red, and it's not because they make instant ornaments at Christmastime by tying them like bows onto lonesome pine trees. It Is So You Can See Them, Especially When They Are Not Where They Are Supposed To Be.

I am looking forward to reading the next chapter of this Stalactite story.

Albertj


Last edited by albertj on Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:07 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:15 pm

Bonehead mistake, we do agree on that part.

As for bone heads, I have one last red rag confession, on the same dirt car I swear I stuffed 2 rags in the carb hole one day while rebuilding my holly, well turns out there were 3, I swore it was sabotage after having to remove the head to untangle things, but years of reflection conclude it had to be my error.

The only place red rag could hurt would be the crankshaft bearings, they are very easy to inspect without being too intrusive, but come on, this engine has been babied since the discovery of low pressure.

My experience and torture testing cars is extensive, I was state demo derby champ one year, dirt track racer for many years, etc... This engine prob aint hurt, and no it should never have happened but tearing down and complaining past the point of repair, perhaps with a warranty will likely get you less..
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:24 pm

albertj wrote:
Or swap in an engine that's already been rebuilt (by someone else...), there are good sources of well-rebuilt 3800SC engines.
There is a reason those shop rags are red, and it's not because they make instant ornaments at Christmastime. It Is So You Can See Them, Especially When They Are Not Where They Are Supposed To Be.
I am looking forward to reading the next chapter of this Stalactite story. Albertj
Couldn't agree more. All of the above was well said. I highlite these points as the idea of just getting a rebuilt engine ready to go in will save a lot of time and most likely provide a warranty. An engine re-built by a company such as Jasper Engines can be had in sometimes less than 24 hours, will have a good warranty and might actually be less money than a local machine shop would have to charge depending on what they find damaged.
And the reason shop rags are RED is worth mentioning as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:16 pm

98inSFl wrote:
complaining past the point of repair, perhaps with a warranty will likely get you less..
This could prove to be true. Especially when dealing with a dealership.
BUT you did look at the same pictures I looked at of the valley and the previous pictures of the oil pick up tube and oil pan. They ain't pretty and I would be very surprised if all these rags did not cause some scoring of the cam, rod and/or crank bearings due to how soft those materials are and possible potential problems with the oil pump.
None of this can be determined without a proper teardown though.
Remember this is his daily driver and has to be reliable and dependable.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:42 pm

I agree with the total mess that has transpired but to demand a engine may be more then they are going to do about , at a minimum there needs to be a couple of flushes scheduled and a bunch of frequent free oil changes and a agreement in writing about some sort of warranty period if theres a lubrication failure of any sort .

Rick,I aint saying a new or at least a tear down isnt in order I am just trying to be real.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:07 pm

Yeh, i know what your saying and your right about being realistic as to what they will want to do.
It's just worth the try or very strong suggestion to them as to what you expect to be done.

In the end if they agree to a proper tear-down that will be great, if they don't and he's not willing to go the legal route then a proper cleaning and flushing along with a documented agreement on future engine warranty based on problems related to oil supply, consumption or pressure problems is at the VERY least to be expected.

If you are going to compromise with them ask them while they have the oil pan down, to pull a rod end cap and a main cap to inspect the condition of the bearings. If they are good they can re-torque the caps back on. Unfortunately it's not so easy to examine the cam bearings and they are the ones that are the closest to this mess up top. But if the lower ones are bad then they should agree to a full tear-down. That's a reasonable compromise I think.


Last edited by Rickw on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:46 pm

Its a car part now--- Do you have a name?

What are your expectations from the dealer.?

So far all I've been doing is hijacking your thread and posting MY expectations, Sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:16 pm

I think any local neutral third party would agree that the engine should be torn down to inspect/replace any bearings, lifters, etc that could have fibers from those rags in them. And how about the oil pump and check valves?

If it was me, I would never be at ease not knowing that all the potential damage that they are liable for had been properly checked... And if/when something bad happened a year or two down the road, I'd go postal!
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:59 am

I added name in profile. I thought the comments were helpful, Rick. I didn't think it was thread hijacking.

The fiber didn't seem to go through the pump, there were no fibers on any on the filters I cut open, the pickup screen seemed to catch all of it. There was nothing on inside of pickup or in any of the remote lines.

I'm not sure if the fibers falling from above and landing on spinning parts could get forced into bearing. It doesn't seem likely to me, but it would be worth double checking. I could see the cam lobes toward the middle, there was no scoring, the fibers where probably mainly at the ends though. I would guess if It was pulled into gap between bearings from outside, it would have some visible strands sticking out. Is it even possible for the fibers to get in that way?

There was no odd clicking/tapping sounds when it idled. The acoustic cover and under hood insulation has been gone awhile. The loudest clicking was the Evap solenoids, I unhooked both to see it there was any other tapping/clicking, I could then here a faint tapping, turned out to be pass. door panel vibrating, sound stopped when I pushed on it. The fibers may have gotten jammed in the roller of the lifter, so they slide on lobe rather then roll, that may not have made a sound. The middle ones were fine, based on appearance of cam lobe, but any damage would likely have been at the ends, directly below oil drains.

The dealer was intending to tear the motor at least partially down, I'm not sure how far. I'll check into them checking the main and rod bearing. I think they'll be fine, since the fiber appears to have not made it to the galleys, and I saw nothing odd on the rotating assembly, better to check and know though.

As I understand it they are going to refund the Lim gasket install / ingested water removal, reimburse my costs for the flushing and time spent doing it, and fix problem. If there is no fibers jammed in the lifters, or visible damage to the bearings there should be no issues, but some kind of warranty would still be needed. It seems the dealer is taking care of it, seems they just had one employee mess up very badly. I think the engine will survive.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:32 am

The crankshaft bearings have oil pushing out of their sides while the engine runs.

Amazing that theres now a resolution in sight and they are going to take responsibility, what about a loaner car while you are on a roll?
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:00 am

Sounds like your motor is safe then, I guess I am being a little over cautious, but the possibility for bearing scoring is still there. Long term it may not end up having any effect.

Ask them to pay for a new oil pan gasket! wink
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:47 pm

I knew that there is oil pushing out. I have seen strings pulled into turning shafts and axle bearings on non-pressure fed shafts, shopping cart wheels, electric motors, fans, ect. The strings always had visible tales sticking out. I had no idea if oil pushing out would over come fibers winding in. Since there where no fibers visibly sticking out, I assume the oil pressure would trump the fibers being pulled in.

I don't think the axles on the roller lifters are pressure fed, they may be tangled up. The fibers would be clearly jammed from outside, and lifter wouldn't turn if they where. So, that externally visible damage would be obvious with any kind of tear down, maybe even from just cleaning it. since the towel was in the lifter valley, ant tear down would have to include the checking the lifters.

They are probably going to check the pump too. when they first heard about the pickup clog they said check the pump, so I assume they would double check it before it left there shop. i think the pump is fine since there was no fiber on filter, but may as well check for sure.

They replaced gaskets if the touched them at all before, so they'll probably put a new pan gasket on after they drop the pan. The pan had a very slow oil seep before, not enough i had to add oil but pan would stay cleaned off. So if it leaks a little but the engine internals are fine I'll be happy. The fsm says its not reusable.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:01 am

When rereading my last post I noticed it could be misunderstood. The "I knew that there is oil pushing out" part sounds kind of smart alec. I didn't mean it that way. I was trying to say that I knew the oil drained there, but didn't know if it would stop the string winding in. I didn't think the fibers had, but had no idea for sure if there would be visible strands hanging out like I was assuming. I took 98inSFI's comment to mean the oil would prevent the fibers winding in, answering my question from two posts back. I found this to be reassuring since he is more knowledgeable in this area then me.

If anyone sees any flaw in my reasoning, point it out. That was the reason I explained my reasoning in detail. My knowledge of engine internals is mainly book smarts, hands on is limited. I have only taken 2 engines apart before with some friends, and they were blown never to run again. Well, the 3100 they thought was blown, turned out to be a plug wasn't screwed in. This was not found until the owner cracked the head with a sludge hammer, trying to get it loose, it was blown after that. This was the furthest I have ever disassembled with intent to put it back together again.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:28 am

No smart alec taken, typing can sometimes loose or gain something as there is no face to face interaction here to read expressions and such.

As for your reasoning about with the winding effect , I did not consider that possible on the rods(due to whipping) but I suppose it could be possible but very very unlikely on a main. I am not sure about a lifter roller but I suppose the same thing, not likely but physically possible, after all there was a tremendous amount of fiber material loose in there.
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PostSubject: Re: Low oilpressure, Oil pickup Stalactite   Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:07 pm

Car was towed to dealership today. I have loaner car until mine is done. I don't know how long its going to be.
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