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 Why wont it crank!?

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moldymac
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PostSubject: Why wont it crank!?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:37 pm

After an aggravating axle replacement on my 97 riv I ran into big problems. I backed the car into my garage to replace the driver's side axle. Nothing on that job went right and when it was done all I wanted to do was drive the car and see how well the axle replacement went. Get in, turn the key, NOTHING. Tried shifting through all gears, tried it in neutral, nothing, no crank at all. I can hear the fuel pump come on, but thats it. I probed the smaller wire on the solenoid on the start while someone cranked, and I get no voltage. I have battery voltage on the large wire. The whole time the key is in the run position, the security light blinks. Is this a security issue, or did my ignition crap out? I had to put it in run a number of times to turn the wheels while working on it. Any help would be greatly appreciated! I can swap an engine, but something stupid like this gets me!
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:44 pm

Did you have to remove a ground wire anywhere near the starter or Bellhousing to do this repair.?
Did you disconnect the Battery while doing the repair.?
You obviously are not getting any start signal to the solenoid (small wire)
Need to back track through the wiring diagram and find out where it could have been interrupted.
I don't have the wiring diagram here to post, sorry.
Do you have an FSM.?


Last edited by Rickw on Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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98inSFl
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:11 pm

The security light flashing is most likely what you should focus on but I will ask if you have checked the shifter cable to trans? How about the neutral safety switch under the cable to make sure its still plugged in all the way. Lastly did you do anything under the dash while working this session.
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:13 pm

Focus on why you are not getting 12volts to the small wire at the starter solenoid while the key is in the RUN position.
If you use a small jumper wire and go from 12 volt source to small connection on starter you should get starter to turn over.
Doesn't mean engine will start if indeed you have a Security System issue blocking both starter and ignition circuits.
But if it does run then you know you don't have a security issue.
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moldymac
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:18 pm

Ok, I disconnected the battery for 10 minutes and reconnected. Car turned right over. I guess my passkey is being a bitch? My key is clean, resistor doesnt look worn.
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:34 pm

maybe by leaving the battery connected while doing this job and having to turn the key on and off many times it triggered a glitch or something with the security system that is actually susposed to happen. I don't know.
Glad you got it running again though with out a lot of troubleshooting.
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98inSFl
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:43 pm

I suspected a security , dont worry it was just it being a bitch as u say.

It aint a dirty key, the car was just having a bad day , just like u
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moldymac
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:43 am

Yeah, started fine since. I think I will be keeping an 8mm wrench in the car as a just in case type of thing, should it happen again when I'm not at home. Thanks for the suggestions!
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:03 am

moldymac wrote:
Ok, I disconnected the battery for 10 minutes and reconnected. Car turned right over. I guess my passkey is being a bitch? My key is clean, resistor doesnt look worn.

The passkey/security can indeed be a bitch when it wants to. If the problem becomes frequent, you may need a new ignition switch, or you might have an issue with the ignition key (more precisely, the resistor/chip in the key).
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GMFreak8
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:52 am

Welcome to my world. lol This has happened to me so many times I've lost count. You work on the car, get frustrated, just want it to end and you get in to start it and drive away to relax and test things out only to realize that the security system has decided to lock you out.

I've come up with a few possible reasons...

1.) while working on the car you continually open and shut the door checking things, or you turn the ignition on and off a few times. This in turn lowers the reserve of the battery causing it to become weaker. The security system seems to be super sensitive to this voltage fluctuation. So when you go to start it it reads an incorrect value on the key as a result of the lower voltage. In return it triggers the security system and puts it into a three minute lock down. Any subsequent tries seem to extend this lockdown.

2.) you leave the key semi-inserted in the ignition which seems to somehow trick the security system into thinking something is going on. It enters lockdown. I've had this happen if you leave the key in the ignition just short of the position where the bell dings warning you.

It can become extremely annoying very fast, especially on cold mornings when you expect your car to start, but the damn security system thinks you're trying to steal the car. Best thing to do is disconnect the battery and reconnect it, or in the event of low voltage, disconnect, reconnect, and put a booster pack on it. It gets really annoying when the car decides to turn over a few times, but the security system kicks in one crank short of the car starting.
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moldymac
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:41 am

ITs probably a combo of those things. I had opened the door, turned the key enough to unlock the wheel and turn the wheels so I can get at things. That and the head lights would turn on each time I did that. I guess I pissed it off, thats the tanks I get for replacing its bad axle!
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GMFreak8
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:49 am

moldymac wrote:
ITs probably a combo of those things. I had opened the door, turned the key enough to unlock the wheel and turn the wheels so I can get at things. That and the head lights would turn on each time I did that. I guess I pissed it off, thats the tanks I get for replacing its bad axle!

Yeah that'll definitely cause it. I find the Rivieras to be extremely voltage sensitive. Mine kills the battery just enough to do that in a few hours of work. Brand new battery too. I guess that's the price we pay for having a car with so many electrical gizmos for the year. I'm actually thinking of putting a second battery in just to prevent this and allow me to run my stereo with it off for longer periods.
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moldymac
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:08 pm

Its a lot more sensitive than the passkey I in my roadmaster. All it does is shut down the engine when it can't find the key. It doesnt lock out the starter like these.
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GMFreak8
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:17 pm

moldymac wrote:
Its a lot more sensitive than the passkey I in my roadmaster. All it does is shut down the engine when it can't find the key. It doesnt lock out the starter like these.

Yeah, I miss not having a security system (after all they basically are useless, anyone who is motivated enough can bypass it easily).

One thing I do notice when the security activates is the starter solenoid clicking when you try to turn it over with the security engaged; it just doesn't engage the starter fully. Does the same thing when i try to start it with the remote start when it is engaged.
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:54 pm

Why not put the resistor in the ignition wire, in the harness, that mimics the resistance of the key chip and your problems are over. As far as Pass-Key ll problems are concerned.
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moldymac
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:40 pm

Rickw wrote:
Why not put the resistor in the ignition wire, in the harness, that mimics the resistance of the key chip and your problems are over. As far as Pass-Key ll problems are concerned.

I may end up doing that. I do want a remote starter and would have to do that anyways.
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:56 pm

Rickw wrote:
Why not put the resistor in the ignition wire, in the harness, that mimics the resistance of the key chip and your problems are over. As far as Pass-Key ll problems are concerned.

And if somebody wants to steal your car, it's gone...
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Why wont it crank!?   Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:10 pm

If someone want's to steal your car it's gone anyway. When you by-pass the system I don't advocated putting a sign in the window alerting every thief that your Pass-Key System, has been disabled.
The Passkey system is one of the least effective theft deterrent systems made.
If someone is that knowledgeable about what make and model car, has what system installed, they will never know if that system has been disabled.
If they felt Pass-Key was an overwhelming obstacle they wouldn't go near your car.
And finally what is it worth. That is stealing a 12 year old car. There are much more desirable and valuable car's to put that much effort into and steal than the Riv.
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