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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:25 am

I'm considering buying a wideband to help with tuning my car, but i'm still a little fuzzy on what i need and if i would really benefit from it.

I've heard it is the S%&T when it comes to dialing in A/F across the board. And from what i am seeing, the prices are anywhere from $180 to $500 for a "kit". the main difference i see is in the gauge that is comes with. Most have a bosch 5 wire O2 and some wires that go to a led/analog gauge. that and the tuner is all i need right?

Right now i have no KR, pretty much ever, and my LTFT is +/-5 locking in a 0. My O2s are a little lean WOT, but not too bad.
I really dont have any problems with my tune right now, but i keep hearing how great a wideband is for quickly getting a perfect A/F for more power.

Is this a worth investment?

My future plans for the riv are headers, S1 I/C and 3.0 pulley. i want to run 13s in the dead of summer happy

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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:30 am

Matt and I were considering buying one before, but the other day i talked to Darkhorizon over on regalgs, and tuning with a WB sounds so much easier than trying to get your fuel trims right all the time. Now were kind of dead set on buying one.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:06 am

Mr.Riviera wrote:
I'm considering buying a wideband to help with tuning my car, but i'm still a little fuzzy on what i need and if i would really benefit from it.

I've heard it is the S%&T when it comes to dialing in A/F across the board. And from what i am seeing, the prices are anywhere from $180 to $500 for a "kit". the main difference i see is in the gauge that is comes with. Most have a bosch 5 wire O2 and some wires that go to a led/analog gauge. that and the tuner is all i need right?

Right now i have no KR, pretty much ever, and my LTFT is +/-5 locking in a 0. My O2s are a little lean WOT, but not too bad.
I really dont have any problems with my tune right now, but i keep hearing how great a wideband is for quickly getting a perfect A/F for more power.

Is this a worth investment?

My future plans for the riv are headers, S1 I/C and 3.0 pulley. i want to run 13s in the dead of summer happy

It's a bit of a pain to get hooked up, because you need an external input on your scanner, plus another O2 bung added to your exhaust pre-cat. Here's my alternative:

Go to a dyno. See what the tailpipe probe tells you your A/F is and compare that to your narrowband's reading. Now you know where you are and what it means.

Technically speaking, a dyno's tailpipe wideband probe is a little off because the catalytic converter throws a curve ball at it. The only way to get a 'true' WOT A/F reading is to have a probe before the cat. That means either a cutout, or install a bung for a wideband O2. Personally, I went with knowing what the tailpipe probe means to my narrowband readings and I've been fine. It will keep you close enough to be reasonably safe. I don't think you need to worry too much more about WOT A/F until you are running low 12s and shooting for 11s...

Oh, and I'd strongly recommend a good cam before an IC.
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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:41 am

i dont have a cat anymore. and there is a shop doing 3 pulls this sunday for $35, i'll try to post the results.

i like the simplicity and safety of rockers. unless my motor blows and i build another one for drop-in i will not be going cam.

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1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:53 am

I agree with deekster. The wideband is useful, but a probe does the same thing. They both let you know your actual AFR, which is not the same as the calculated target you see on your scanner.

The reason wideband makes sense is so you can tune for HP; otherwise you can only tune for zero KR, which does not guarantee max power output. With wideband, you can target an ideal AFR and then tune for KR. Mine seemed to like 11.5:1 on the dyno. Now that I know that, I could use a wideband to ensure I stay in that range. Otherwise, you can make all the boost in the world, with zero KR - and make less power because you're too rich and have no way to correct it.

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'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


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Mr.Riviera
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:05 am

so just to make sure i know what i'm doing for sunday...
i make a pull mapping my A/F vs time.
then make adjustments to fueling to get to targeted A/F at WOT (11.3-11.5?) and leaner at idle and cruse.
then make another pull to see if changes made power.
then retune the MAF to remove any KR that may now appear (wouldnt that throw off the A/F)?



OR am i making dyno pulls to see how far off my narrowband is and then using the narrowband to make A/F adjustments on the street (compensating for the difference)?

also, since i have no cat, just a 3" pipe, can i put the wideband where the rear O2 used to be and still get accurate readings?

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1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:18 am

To get your maximum power output, you want to be as lean as you can be WITHOUT ANY KR. 11.5 puts you in a known safe range, but if you can go leaner you will make more power. The problem comes when you start boost stacking - you start using extra fuel to cool the cylinders. You also start losing efficiency. That's why you can make more power with a smaller (appropriate sized) pulley, correct fuel and more timing. If your pulley gets to the point where you are boost stacking, everything else is a band aid. You can only flow so much air. That's why a cam is a better investment, more reliable and safer, than an IC. Once you reach a point where your pulley has exceeded your airflow abilities, you start boost stacking, which is where your excess heat comes from. Open up the airflow (cam/head porting/etc) and you will not NEED an IC.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:23 am

Got it! thanks guys. i'll be posting my A/F curve when i get it and probably asking for some more advice.

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1996 with 244k miles, L324" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:38 am

Quote :
i make a pull mapping my A/F vs time.
then make adjustments to fueling to get to targeted A/F at WOT (11.3-11.5?) and leaner at idle and cruse.
then make another pull to see if changes made power.
then retune the MAF to remove any KR that may now appear (wouldnt that throw off the A/F)?
That is basically how I'd approach it. Your first pull will probably have zero KR and be pig rich (mine was 9.5:1). I was puzzled at the zero KR because I usually saw 1-2. The reason was less load from the dyno.

The next step was to tweak the MAF tables for less fuel, and sure enough, no KR, and power increased by 8 HP in just a couple more pulls, once AFR was at 11.5:1. But when back on the road, my KR returned, so I added a little fuel back in. I suppose I could have backed off timing a smidge, or a better-flowing exhaust system (or a cam) could have gotten rid of the knock. But I'm like you wanting to stay in the rocker club. The fuel economy makes it worth it to me.

What I learned from the experience is that even though I can tune KR back to zero, I would rather not, because it costs me power and uses more fuel. Instead, I run with a tad bit of KR (< 3), knowing I'm a little faster. It's necessary evil, imo, and my engine hasn't blown up yet. Some folks swear by the zero KR target but they aren't getting a whole lot in using that strategy.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:28 am

Well im shooting for low 12s, so ill be getting one.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:42 pm

L8-2BNGO wrote:
Well im shooting for low 12s, so ill be getting one.
rockets

AA, i'm with you on a little KR isnt the end of the world. most stock cars have KR (maybe even more than 3*) and many go on to live 200k+ mile lives with drivers who dont take care of them.

_________________
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:08 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
L8-2BNGO wrote:
Well im shooting for low 12s, so ill be getting one.
rockets

AA, i'm with you on a little KR isnt the end of the world. most stock cars have KR (maybe even more than 3*) and many go on to live 200k+ mile lives with drivers who dont take care of them.

In the Turbo Regal world (think GN), I know heavily modded guys who run 5* of KR regularly at WOT, and it's accepted and 'OK'.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:31 pm

What's been putting me off on buying a wideband is that I can't do too much with it unless I am on a dyno and can log it with the rest of my data, both out of my reach right now. Lately the street, for me anyway, is too imprecise and unsafe to get very good, consistant WOT logs. That was one good thing about living in the stix. Overall, I can't use it yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:27 pm

What is this wideband I hear about?
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:32 pm

Wideband Oxygen sensor. I had an extra bung welded into my system ahead of the Cat for possible future wideband use.
With the bung, I can buy the sensor and wires only and then hook it into the HPT software for a more exact reading of air fuel ratio that allows for more precise tuning.
Some say that level of tuning is not necesary until you get into much higher mod status but the way i look at it the more precise the data your looking at the better.
You should google wideband and read up on it or maybe even do a search on here, there's probably a lot of good info right here.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:49 pm

Rickw wrote:
Wideband Oxygen sensor. I had an extra bung welded into my system ahead of the Cat for possible future wideband use.
With the bung, I can buy the sensor and wires only and then hook it into the HPT software for a more exact reading of air fuel ratio that allows for more precise tuning.
Some say that level of tuning is not necesary until you get into much higher mod status but the way i look at it the more precise the data your looking at the better.
You should google wideband and read up on it or maybe even do a search on here, there's probably a lot of good info right here.

I see. So it's only for the air fuel ratio. It's nothing else really? I thought it gave you a lot more control over programming. I guess it stems from my work in computers where wideband implies a high load of data essentially referring to the same as broadband versus narrowband. shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:38 am

well from what i understand because we cant get the proper afr with a narrow band we guess using ltfts and o2s, with a wideband theres no guessing.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:45 am

Quote :
I see. So it's only for the air fuel ratio. It's nothing else really?
A/F ratio is one of the most important things you can know about your engine if you want to tune it. Wideband sensor is the only way to get that information, so I'd say it's a pretty significant component.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:56 am

AA wrote:
Quote :
I see. So it's only for the air fuel ratio. It's nothing else really?
A/F ratio is one of the most important things you can know about your engine if you want to tune it. Wideband sensor is the only way to get that information, so I'd say it's a pretty significant component.

x2^
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:19 am

GMFreak8 wrote:
I see. So it's only for the air fuel ratio. It's nothing else really? I thought it gave you a lot more control over programming. I guess it stems from my work in computers where wideband implies a high load of data essentially referring to the same as broadband versus narrowband. shocked
If your done spending money on accessories and your going to get serious about modifying and tuning your engine, then you owe it to yourself to start to read more about the workings of a supercharged internal combustion engine.
You will hopefully find that before you start bolting on performance parts you do it in a sequence that is GOOD for your engine.
A pulley drop as your first engine Mod is a sure sign of disaster. Please take the time to read through the wealth of knowledge that is in this site. Just look for it and you will find it.
Especially when it comes to modifying the engine and in what sequence you should do certain things before others.
If you have the money to buy Tuning software as opposed to just scanning software, do it.
If all you can buy is scanning software , that may protect you from disinigrating your engine by monitoring what your engine is doing but it is a waste of money if you can afford the best tuning software available that will do both scan and tune. Right now the only software available for us that is new and update-able is HPT and if you want to add the ability to read wideband A/F ratio's you should order the HPT Pro. Look it up on their website. As well as look up all this other info regarding tuning before you make any changes to your pulley size.
If you look at my sig you will notice the changes i made in order, from left to right almost precisely, to my engine so i wouldn't hurt the engine and once i got where i thought it was OK to drop pulley size I asked for tuning help before and during the smaller pulley install. And I have a moderately large pulley installed on my engine. But i feel it is the smallest pulley i should put on this engine until i do further mod's.
The next planned mod's are a GenV SC with N* TB Kit, etc. Even with that a 3.4 might be a safe and adequate pulley. I'll see when I start scanning on my own and take advice from the people that have gone before me.


Last edited by Rickw on Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:32 am

Kyle, I've only done a little research on the wide-band world, but for what it's worth I think this is a decent, simple description of the difference...

The main purpose of the wide-band system is to be accurate outside the ideal, stoichiometric A/F ratio... The purpose of the factory O2 sensors is to keep the engine at 14.7:1, which is around 0.45 volts on the sensor. Because the manufacturer and the EPA are mainly concerned with emissions, unless the engine is allowed to go to Open Loop "Power Enrichement" Mode for large throttle angles/loads, the PCM slavishly tries to keep the mixture at 14.7, and therefore the O2 sensors only have to really be accurate around the middle of their range (which is basically from 0V up to almost 1V.)

For tuners, modifiers, racers, etc, who have heavily modified engines and are concerned with a lot of WOT use, an O2 sensor that is accurate up & down the whole range of A/F ratios and voltages is necessary, to adjust their fuel and timing tables, and to keep their engines healthy.
.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:57 pm

From what i've read, a wideband is a must for proper tuning.

Here's a super noob question. Where does the the wideband sensor go? is it in the exhaust pipe or what? ..guessing.

I'm clueless.
Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:52 pm

Yeah charlie, it's essentially just another oxygen sensor like the ones on the car already except it will have some kind of small module and wiring to go with it to connect to a gauge, on-board scan tool, tuner input or whatever you want pretty much. The standard oxygen sensor doesn't read very far away from 14.7 afr which means you have no idea what's going on when the engine goes into pe unless you have a wideband
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PostSubject: temp   Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:31 pm

A wide and sensor will continue giving valid output at high flow when a 'standard' sensor will stop being useful after about 50% tps.
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PostSubject: Re: Wideband   Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:33 pm

So where exactly do you plug the sensor in? The bung hole in the exhaust pipe?
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