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 96 n/a riv that will not stay running

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brians74x
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PostSubject: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:15 am

Went to the store to get some smokes and went to leave it started up and ran for like four seconds and died.... when i tried to start it again it runs for a second and it stalls. You can smell raw gas at the tail pipes so i don't think its the fuel pump help BTW the car has 108000 miles
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:59 am

Hard to tell without a computer diagnostic session, but generally problems like this come back to lots of possibilities. Cam sensor wire breaking off has been a common issue for no-starts, this page has all the info on the cam sensor wire issue that has cropped up:

http://rivperformance.editboard.com/series-ii-engine-transmission-f4/p0341-camshaft-position-sensor-cam-sensor-timing-chain-t4703-135.htm?highlight=cam+position+sensor

Otherwise, it could be a lot of things...
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:28 pm

Does it stay running if you keep your foot on the gas?
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brians74x
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:26 pm

went back today to tow it home and it has no pressure at the fuel rail so im guessing it the fuel pump..........and to ad salt to my open wounds my tail light got busted wtf Wish i would have never left the house yesterday
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:27 pm

GMFreak8 wrote:
Does it stay running if you keep your foot on the gas?

nope i tried that
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:39 pm

brians74x wrote:
GMFreak8 wrote:
Does it stay running if you keep your foot on the gas?

nope i tried that

Need to get it to a shop with a TechII (GM scanner/interface) or equivalent so diagnostics can be run.

While on the Tech II, among other things check the start sequence to see what's running and what's not. Might be crank sensor. Crank sensor when it fails will not set a code, BUT on the Tech II you can see that it is not sending a signal and if it does not, then the ECU will not turn the fuel pump on.

Albertj
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brians74x
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:44 pm

thanks for in the info ill do that
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:06 pm

Fuel pump still primes on the initial power up, if there is no pressure STILL suspect fuel pump, check more carefully
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:19 pm

98inSFl wrote:
Fuel pump still primes on the initial power up, if there is no pressure STILL suspect fuel pump, check more carefully

Good point.

A tech with a Tech II who knows what he/she is doing can test fuel pump etc. pretty quickly - "command" it on and see what happens.

Now, that said, IF the tech "can not find the problem" then you might have a crank sensor that's bad warm. They do that, and don't leave a code, and start up fine when stone cold.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:32 pm

A tech 2 aint always easy to obtain... theres plenty one can do when one is not available.'
I have cooled crank sensors with freon or a water hose in a quick pinch to diagnose
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brians74x
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:35 pm

the fuel pump is not even priming any more......
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98inSFl
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:42 pm

Locate the fuel pump fuse and relay, check the fuse, cycle the key to see if the relay is giving you that 2 second prime.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:27 pm

98inSFl wrote:
A tech 2 aint always easy to obtain... theres plenty one can do when one is not available.'
I have cooled crank sensors with freon or a water hose in a quick pinch to diagnose

Makes sense, a can of the RadioShack cooling spray would do it.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:28 pm

brians74x wrote:
the fuel pump is not even priming any more......

The fuel pump will quit priming if the fuel system has built up enough pressure. It takes a while for it to leak down, not forever but more than a minute or two. So depending on who you're doing this, ti still might not be the problem.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:32 pm

I tried it the next day when i was there to tow it home...doa
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:33 pm

98inSFl wrote:
A tech 2 aint always easy to obtain... theres plenty one can do when one is not available.'
I have cooled crank sensors with freon or a water hose in a quick pinch to diagnose

Oh and about the TechII - all GM dealers have them or the computer/laptop based replacement. PROBLEM will be finding a tech who knows how to diagnose the older cars, at a dealer. Some dealers do, some don't.

Many larger independent repair shops have them - look on the wall in the customer waiting area to see if they techs have posted their certifications. If you find a General Motors certification on the wall from the past 10-15 years, they probably have at least one GM or Vetronix TechII in the house. You could even phone them and ask. Larger Firestone and GoodYear/Gemini service centers are decent bets - there are two such centers I know of where they take "problem" cars on sublet form new car dealers in the area because they are so good at fixing things.

Albertj
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98inSFl
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:02 pm

albertj wrote:
brians74x wrote:
the fuel pump is not even priming any more......

The fuel pump will quit priming if the fuel system has built up enough pressure. It takes a while for it to leak down, not forever but more than a minute or two. So depending on who you're doing this, ti still might not be the problem.

Albertj

Our cars have no way of knowing how much fuel pressure there is within the system, there is no sensor, the "prime" of 2 seconds is done automatically with every key cycle.

Time to pull the cover on the fuel pump and test for power during those 2 seconds or while cranking.

Not everyone (such as myself) believes the dealer has anything to offer older cars. IF I were to absolutely need a Tech 2 I would find a shop with one, otherwise a generic scanner like a snap on Modis or even less does fine for engine/trans diagnostics .The scanner operator is the most important part of the operation...
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:23 pm

98inSFl wrote:
albertj wrote:
brians74x wrote:
the fuel pump is not even priming any more......

The fuel pump will quit priming if the fuel system has built up enough pressure. It takes a while for it to leak down, not forever but more than a minute or two. So depending on who you're doing this, ti still might not be the problem.

Albertj

Our cars have no way of knowing how much fuel pressure there is within the system, there is no sensor, the "prime" of 2 seconds is done automatically with every key cycle.

Time to pull the cover on the fuel pump and test for power during those 2 seconds or while cranking.

Not everyone (such as myself) believes the dealer has anything to offer older cars. IF I were to absolutely need a Tech 2 I would find a shop with one, otherwise a generic scanner like a snap on Modis or even less does fine for engine/trans diagnostics .

Thinking about it, you are right that it (a TechII) is not absolutely necessary. Point is if one can be found, the diagnosis will take a lot less time. If minimizing the downtime is important, then it is more important to make a few phone calls to find a shop with one.

details:

With a Tech II you can "command" on the various components that are controlled by the car's computers. Provided you know what you're doing, having one takes a lot of time and hassle out of diagnosis. You can connect the tech II, take it with you into the car's trunk, make a few menu selections and command the pump on. You don't need a second person, you don't need to guess at whether you heard or did not hear the fuel pump, etc. And like many of the non-OE scanners you can look at the display and see if you are getting a crank signal, cam signal, etc, and you can see the sensor readings.

You are right that a generic snap-on/MODIS (See http://buy1.snapon.com/products/diagnostics/modis-system.asp?linkback=1&partno=EEMS300E12IN&dir=catalog) is *very* useful and will read the codes and log what's happening while running. The Car-Code software by Alex Peper will as well. However the TechII has the ability to *activate* the cars' systems for troubleshooting. Granted the activation capability is not always needed for troubleshooting but in this case it will, used right, save a lot of time and headache. That is, with a TechII you can turn the fuel pump etc. on remotely. If it comes on you know the car's computer is responding and wiring is functioning. Again, I suspect the issue will be finding a tech that knows how to do it on a '90s Riv. Not impossible but not a nobrainer either.

So your approach can be done and should work. However, In this case if a Tech II can be used it will likely take less time to get the car back on the road.

Albertj
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98inSFl
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:41 pm

I will agree the bi-directional control a Tech 2 has is the best tool for the job, I was just saying there are many ways to skin a cat.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:55 pm

98inSFl wrote:
I will agree the bi-directional control a Tech 2 has is the best tool for the job, I was just saying there are many ways to skin a cat.

Agreed. We will see what can be done.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:59 am

98inSFl wrote:
Locate the fuel pump fuse and relay, check the fuse, cycle the key to see if the relay is giving you that 2 second prime.

agree
The fact that it came on so suddenly and completely, I'll lay 8-to-5 that it is the fuse/relay.
And dude, that sucks that some POS knuckle-dragging punk broke your tail light - especially with OUR tail light assemblies.
This is what happens when the bleeding hearts stop everyone from properly disciplining their spawn... twak

(Even when I was young, I hated those damned kids! mad )
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98inSFl
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:21 am

A fuel pump is the most likely problem if you can not hear the prime , yes they go suddenly, rarely a relay or fuse... but well worth checking fuses first.
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:47 pm

98inSFl wrote:
albertj wrote:
brians74x wrote:
the fuel pump is not even priming any more......

The fuel pump will quit priming if the fuel system has built up enough pressure. It takes a while for it to leak down, not forever but more than a minute or two. So depending on who you're doing this, ti still might not be the problem.

Albertj

Our cars have no way of knowing how much fuel pressure there is within the system, there is no sensor, the "prime" of 2 seconds is done automatically with every key cycle.

Time to pull the cover on the fuel pump and test for power during those 2 seconds or while cranking.

Not everyone (such as myself) believes the dealer has anything to offer older cars. IF I were to absolutely need a Tech 2 I would find a shop with one, otherwise a generic scanner like a snap on Modis or even less does fine for engine/trans diagnostics .The scanner operator is the most important part of the operation...

Hmmm... guess I need to 'recalibrate' - mine was failing when I noticed that and I have not listened closely to it since replacement.

Albertj
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98inSFl
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:38 pm

Sometimes you just cant hear the pump, we do have a bunch of sound insulation.
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brians74x
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PostSubject: Re: 96 n/a riv that will not stay running   Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:45 pm

98inSFl wrote:
Sometimes you just cant hear the pump, we do have a bunch of sound insulation.

that is true. I really dont know the car that well i only had it like almost two weeks.... But i sure do miss it sad
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