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 Dont know what to do now, Timing?

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Joby70739
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Joby70739

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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 8:59 pm

Rickw wrote:
You need to gain visual access to those wires as they are more than likely the culprit, since they can easily have become damaged when the belt and pulley fragmented on you. Try inspection mirror's or anything you can think of to get a very good look at them. Unfortunately this may involve removing stuff that's in the way of looking and repairing any wires. The belt hitting the coils is VERY Unlikely to have caused all of them to stop working.
Also, why is the battery losing it's charge. It shouldn't lose charge from sitting unless something is draining it. Or do you mean having the door(s) open and cranking the engine to test things have caused it to go down.?
Either way you want to put a charger / maintainer on it so you have at least 12 volts to do the testing you need to do. When things get below 8 volts, some systems will not work properly including the ignition system. Not saying that's what stopping it from starting but for all troubleshooting purpose's it's best to have the batt at 12 or more volts.
Good Luck and don't give up, keep at it until you find the problem. My guess is the wiring to the crank position sensor. Also, if any of those wires happened to short to ground it could have fried the sensor as well.
Fix the wires first though.


Seems to be the only way to gain access to this new found wire is by removing the water pump pulley. Will be doing that tomorrow, But would the wire to the sensor be making the coils not fire? I am getting zero spark. And if it fried the sensor would it throw a code? And why would the battery be drained?
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 9:55 pm

Joby70739 wrote:
Seems to be the only way to gain access to this new found wire is by removing the water pump pulley. Will be doing that tomorrow, But would the wire to the sensor be making the coils not fire? I am getting zero spark. And if it fried the sensor would it throw a code? And why would the battery be drained?

Yes, the crank and cam position wires will make a no spark situation. They are the sensors that replace the old mechanical distributor pickup/points. They tell the PCM the crank and cam positions, and therefore when to fire the spark. Without them you are screwed.

You should not only do a visual, but test continuity of those wires.
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Joby70739
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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 10:15 pm

I am having to fix this the old fashion trial and error method. How would I go about checking to see if the coil even has power to it? After fixing the next wire, if it is a wire broke, couldnt see it only felt it barely sticking my hand down between the motor mount and water pump pulley, could have been pieces of the belt let stuck in there. It would help if I had someone to come look at my car and tell me what is wrong but the only mechanic friend I have is just about worthless unless he needs something. So I am left to do it by myself.
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 10:20 pm

I haven't had the crank or cam position sensor wiring off, except when I had the engine out of the car and most of the brackets off, so I'm afraid I'm not much help on getting that the plugs with the engine still in the car and all bracketry attached. You really should look into getting an FSM, or Factory Service Manual. Not just a haynes or chiltons repair book. The FSM contains troubleshooting charts for the problems you are experiencing, and very detailed steps on diagnosing the problems.
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Joby70739
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Joby70739

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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 10:37 pm

Do you know where I can order one local stores do not carry any books on my car.
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 10:41 pm

Joby70739 wrote:
Rickw wrote:
You need to gain visual access to those wires as they are more than likely the culprit, since they can easily have become damaged when the belt and pulley fragmented on you. Try inspection mirror's or...

Seems to be the only way to gain access to this new found wire is by removing the water pump pulley. Will be doing that tomorrow, But would the wire to the sensor be making the coils not fire? I am getting zero spark. And if it fried the sensor would it throw a code? And why would the battery be drained?

Yes, on *this* car that wire will make it inoperable. You get no spark because if there is no reading from the crank sensor the PCM (powertrain control module) will not send a signal to the ICM (the relatively dumb Ignition Control Module computer that is integral to the coil pack base plate) to fire the coils.

As for the sensor throwing a code if it fried, well, you gotta realize that frying something that's already half-baked usually does not help (just kidding). Seriously--another problem that you have is that the crank sensors tend to quit operating after around 100K miles, give or take 50K. So you *might* want to get a new one to install as preventive maintenance since you are tearing it apart so far anyway. Problem is you have to pull the harmonic balancer to replace the crank sensor, which in your present state isn't great because you probably were not looking for more to do. But if the crank sensor has quit, there is *no* workaround short of replacing it. And actually, if it's quit now you're lucky. They *rarely* go bad but usually they go "bad warm" meaning they work at startup and quit after they get heat soaked, when you are out driving somewhere or another far from home. If you do replace it don't cheap out, get a Delphi or ACDelco. The cheap ones quit after a couple years. Check out RockAuto.com to get a sense of prices.

As for the battery, you might have a current leak somewhere else. It also might be that your battery is very old (the OE batteries usually last about 10 years with good care so if you have the OE pile you are overdue) and your headlight delay is set long--try turning the headlight delay off for now (slide the switch all the way left to min delay) unless it poses you a safety problem. And check again in the vicinity of the belt paths for smacked wires. If you have aftermarket electronics on the car (a remote starter, extra horn, big stereo) you might want to disconnect them while troubleshooting. One thing I have done on other cars is with the car off, connect an ammeter between battery and the + cable, then pull fuses one at a time and see if the load changes a lot. Before you do this be sure you turn the Theftlock on the radio off, instructions are in the owner's manual. If the Theftlock gets stuck off, there are instructions for fixing that posted elsewhere on this site.

Actaully, I'm also kind of wonderiing if you've ever touched the fuel pump or ignition switch...

Anyway...

Like Rick wrote, it's worth fixing, the kind of things you're looking at are typically once-in-the-car's-life things.

And finally - while writing this post I see Derek has had a couple comments. I will state things a little differently. There is a very good chance that if you start "troubleshooting" in the manner you wrote that you will break more than you fix, and although the questions you post here will in all likelihood get answered to the best of people's ability, they are not that good a substitute for the factory manual set. You should be able to get a set fairly cheap off eBay. just search 1998 Buick Riviera Manual and look for a post offering the factory 3-volume set preferably the 2nd edition (the first is OK, there were some midyear changes no showstoppers though).

That said, probably the easiest way to visually inspect these wires (crank sensor) and get enough working room to properly repair with butt connectors is to pull the passenger side wheel and inner fender.

Albertj
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 11:01 pm

In addition to Ebay, factory service manuals can be purchased new from Helm, Inc. the reseller for GM. No bookstore or auto parts store that I know of can get these books.

Here's a link to an ebay auction of the correct book set:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1998-Aurora-Riviera-Factory-Service-Manuals-OEM_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem439daa3748QQitemZ290407987016QQptZMotorsQ5fManualsQ5fLiterature
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Rickw
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 11:20 pm

At that price $45.00 I'd do a buy it now and you'll have them in a few days.
Your going to need the wiring diagrams to ohm out all the wires in at least the CKP circuit and maybe the camshaft sensor circuit as well.
That is a very good price for a quick sale. Unless you want to wait and try to bid lower, but I assume you don't have the time for that.
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Joby70739
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 11:35 pm

Its not just time, money is a factory too. I'll check what I can tomorrow for now I have to sleep. Goodnight all and thanks.
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 17, 2010 11:49 pm

$45 is a lot cheaper than misdiagnosing the problem, getting the wrong parts, and wasting time troubleshooting irrelevant parts.
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyThu Mar 18, 2010 12:08 am

One of the nice things about this forum is we don't leave each other hangin out to dry, so to speak. People are really helpful. But also realistic about when they hit their limitations.

It will all look better in the morning. Either the situation(s) or our ability to deal with it will improve after getting some rest.

Albertj
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Joby70739
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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyFri Mar 19, 2010 3:40 pm

Ok is there a sticky on changing the crank shaft positioning sensor. Pulled the car back apart and there is no more frayed/broken wires. So I am just gonna change sensors. I dont know the last time it was changed so It cant hurt to change it now and see.
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Rickw
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyFri Mar 19, 2010 3:50 pm

I didn't see a "Write Up" specifically for changing the sensor, but this one will help you remove and install the Harmonic balancer which will be of some help.
There is a write up for replacing all the belt and pulleys (engine mount) but I think your familiar with that one.

http://rivperformance.editboard.com/Series-II-Engine-Transmission-f4/Write-Up-Removing-the-Crank-Pulley-Harmonic-Balancer-t1535.htm#16468

BTW, I have a set of 1999 Factoty Service Manuals that I can sell for $35.00 plus shipping, USPS Media MAil shipping costs are relatively inexpensive, but that type of shipping is slower than the other methods.
I think the 99 FSM will be a good manual set for the 98. They made so few, if any, changes to the 99 compared to the 98. Also if your car has a build date of late 98 then I can guarantee there won't be any discrepancies that you will find in the 98 to 99 books.
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Joby70739
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 20, 2010 2:45 pm

Just wondering, but a mechanic told me if my car did a lock out it wouldn't fire. Is that true? Do our cars do that?
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Abaddon
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 20, 2010 4:12 pm

Joby70739 wrote:
Just wondering, but a mechanic told me if my car did a lock out it wouldn't fire. Is that true? Do our cars do that?

A "lock out"? The only thing closest related to a "lock-out" would be if you tried to use the wrong ignition key and the security system disabled the fuel, not the spark. But even in that case, the car would fire for about 1 second and then die. If the security light is on or flashing when the key is in the RUN position, then yes you are "locked out".....but I'll assume this isn't the case.
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Joby70739
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 20, 2010 5:10 pm

I didn't think it was because it just turns over.
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albertj
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 20, 2010 9:59 pm

You can also get the 'lock out' if the ignition key or ignition switch secirity contacts are dirty enough. Use a q-tip dipped in alcohol (dry gas is best, rubbing alcohol is OK) to clean them, you can see them just inside the ignition switch keyway. Also if there is a problem with the ignition switch wiring or any sort of aftermarket security system, this could happen.

Albertj
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Abaddon
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 20, 2010 11:07 pm

albertj wrote:
You can also get the 'lock out' if the ignition key or ignition switch secirity contacts are dirty enough. Use a q-tip dipped in alcohol (dry gas is best, rubbing alcohol is OK) to clean them, you can see them just inside the ignition switch keyway. Also if there is a problem with the ignition switch wiring or any sort of aftermarket security system, this could happen.

Yep, anything that has to do with the pellet
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Joby70739
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 19, 2010 10:14 pm

Removed the Harmonic balancer, when my son tried to crank it it ate the belt up. So after cleaning all the belt out and bending the teeth back straight I changed the sensor and it fired right up. The crank sensor only had 1 tooth left on it. Thanks for all the help.
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albertj
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 19, 2010 10:59 pm

You're welcome. Hope you bought a good sensor.

Albertj
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Joby70739
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PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 20, 2010 2:01 am

The one I bought has a lifetime warrenty on it. I just hope it never goes out again. I had to jam up the flywheel to get the crank bolt off. Wasnt fun at all. The old sensor out of three teeth there was one left. He reads on the forum all the time because after I get my new car he is getting the Riv. He loves it.
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Abaddon
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Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dont know what to do now, Timing?   Dont know what to do now, Timing? - Page 2 EmptyTue Apr 20, 2010 11:42 am

Glad to hear you got it runnin again
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