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 Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting

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Karma
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Name : Andrew
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PostSubject: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyMon Apr 26, 2010 11:12 am

Well, here we go again with another supercharger in the milling machine project.

This is an actual "front-burner" project, and needs to be finished for the car to be back on the road in June.

I wanted to re-visit porting of an m62 supercharger and expand it to more then just smoothing out casting flaws and polishing the inlet.

So this casing will have something different. It will also have the silencer ports plugged. I've done a bunch of reading about plugging, and I am the first to admit that it has minimal gains, and is really for the increased noise. Some would argue that the m62 *really* doesn't need such enhancements, but I had the right tools and inclination. The M90 ports has been successfully plugged with both welding and JB weld. There have been reports of the JB letting go in some cases also. When considering things for the m62 there are a few factors: The holes are bigger and rounder. There is no chance of an intercooler safety net for the riv with an m62. The cobalt guys have plugged the holes with JB weld with success, but they have an intercooler to catch bits that might come out. The m62, having a thinner casing than the m90, and larger diameter holes, doesn’t really lend itself well to welding(without distortion) or to filling with JB weld. My solution is different. I would like to stress that this is not at all really worth the work that I'm putting into it. Its my last "kick at the cat" for the m62 before moving to the Ford Supercoupe m90 swap.

anyway, here we go!

First, I wanted to work out a better way of holding the m62 in the Mill. Since I would be "fussing" with it, I would probably be moving it around alot. For gen3 m90's, I have various posts that bolt it upside down to the stock bolt holes, and while it works well for the m90, I really didn’t want to make a bunch of different height stand-offs again. For the m62, I will be plotting out and making a rotor-cap plate and throttle body cap plate. What, exactly, this means will become clear with the pics:

First we square off the plates, and make them the same:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030234

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030235

Then after locating the holes, they get drilled out. (careful measuring took place to locate the holes!)

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030236

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030237

And here we see what’s going on, end plates that can hold the SC so its square, and parallel to any surface:

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030238

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030239

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030240

And how it mounts in the machine:

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030241

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030242

On to the work:

First, with the piece square in the mill, I cleaned out the outlet. It was skimmed just enough, and the bolt protrusions were removed. :
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030243
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030245

Above we can see the curve of the casing floor, the two side bits by the silencer holes will be important to me later.

Then I opened the square up so that its larger than the hole down into the LIM by a 1/16 or so:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030246

With that done, I needed to clean up the edges of the triangle, extend them slightly, and take off just under a 1/16 all around. This size is increasing roughly the amount lost by plugging the silencer holes. Will it work? who knows, we'll find out. To clean up the triangle, and keep it perfect with the bore, we need the angle. For those interested: since the rotors have a 60 deg twist, intersect right at the peak of the triangle, and overlap each other by half the twist; The math says the triangle should be 30 deg total sweep(or 15 deg in each direction from center). This has been verified by me many time by indicating the edge on a number of castings. Now, if I have a square edge, all I need is indicate a 15 deg angle, and run the edge. It is also clear that the 15deg is right by just watching the cutter skiff the surface for the casting.

Setting 15 deg:

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030251

Finished outlet:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030252

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030253

And we will set this aside for a bit:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030254


Now for the magic, I got a bit of aluminum stock, and made a plate the same size as the pocket in the supercharger. It got sized, squared, and .5" rounds put on the corners so it fits. (sorry no pics, got busy.)

Then both sides were machined flat, and the piece was sized to the exact same depth as the square pocket on the supercharger:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030247
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030248


Yay! it fits! Just like it was made for it!:

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030249
smile "The Total Supercharger Block-off Plate is guaranteed to provide no boost whatsoever, and will take your engine vacuum to its absolute maximum. *Holding the starter engaged is required to maintain engine vacuum. Engine starting is not guaranteed. Performance enhancement is not guaranteed. 100% fuel economy is guaranteed when using this product.*"

Anyway, more needs to be done on the insert. The insert had a pocket of its own cut so that at the 3 sides it was still flush with the supercharger, and in the middle was thinner.

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030255

Then a bevel was run around the edge:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030256

And test fit in the SC again for -100% inlet pressure!:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030257

Time for a triangle. The insert was turned upside-down, and a matching triangle was cut that is 1/16 larger than the triangle in the SC.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030258


Beveled:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030259

And done in the charger:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting P1030260

Now it needs some love with the dremel to smooth and blend everything together. The plan is to fill the two valleys under it with "jb weld like" stuff.(Going to use an aluminum putty similar that is made for aluminum) A relief hole will be drilled on each side of the insert so that the jb weld stuff can splooge out when I press the insert in. The result is a custom output plate, jb welded silencer ports, aluminum plate to keep JB stuff in place, and the whole thing has a rim bigger than the hole into the LIM, providing physical restraint. It won't move, because it can't. More updates to follow as I get it done.

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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyMon Apr 26, 2010 11:24 am

shocked you got skills, nice work!
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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyMon Apr 26, 2010 6:44 pm

Just out of curiousity, what are your rates and what would shipping costs be from Canada? I am currently in the process of sending mine to Calgary to be done by 0-60performance. They specialize in fords but I was referred to them by Western Mostorsports so they must do great work. I was quoted $400 plus ship for port/polish and an additional $400 for black ceramic coat on SC and valve covers by proscmotorsports. Does that seem on par? I ask because I have only ever had any port/polish done on heads when I had my old Fiero 2M6. That engine was stupid expensive when i sent it in to Pro Stock. So this is my 1st time with SC's and I dun wanna get taken for a ride. ride
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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyTue Apr 27, 2010 11:04 am

The trouble with figuring if porting a SC (or anything for that matter) is worth the price is that you really need to see the result. Or talk to someone who has had the same thing ported by them. 400$ is alot if you are sending them the casing, but if they are doing seals, all bearings, and new rotors, then its great. It all depends on what their porting package involves. I'd need to know what they intend to do to it, and some photos of similar work to make a call on price. For instance, the ZZP ported blower is 400$ + core charge, but it comes with brand new Eaton rotors. Which IMO makes it very worth the 400 when you stick on a full porting job as well.

That said, I dunno what I'd ask for doing an m62. I'm in Ontario Canada, so shipping would be cheap. I already have the M62 "mounting cradle" for putting one in the mill. To do normal outlet porting I could do it for way way less , since its just sticking it in the mill. And really the m62 needs minimal porting compared to the m90 and others. To do an outlet like what I just did in this thread, well, that just takes time. And you would want to see how mine works out first.

Since you mentioned once that you can get riv auto parts at cost, maybe we could just work out a trade or something. Send me a PM and we could discuss.

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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyTue Apr 27, 2010 11:30 am

Hometown Hero wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what are your rates and what would shipping costs be from Canada? I am currently in the process of sending mine to Calgary to be done by 0-60performance. They specialize in fords but I was referred to them by Western Mostorsports so they must do great work. I was quoted $400 plus ship for port/polish and an additional $400 for black ceramic coat on SC and valve covers by proscmotorsports. Does that seem on par? I ask because I have only ever had any port/polish done on heads when I had my old Fiero 2M6. That engine was stupid expensive when i sent it in to Pro Stock. So this is my 1st time with SC's and I dun wanna get taken for a ride. ride
thats pretty expensive, american supercharger (IIRC) on ebay sells rebuilt powder coated gen Vs for that price, i would pass on that...
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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyTue Apr 27, 2010 5:30 pm

As it turns out this will be substantially less then $800. Thanx for all your help Karma! Oh and 97 Park Ave.... no hard feelings eh? Just appears we have different stances on how we prefer our cars, 1 thing we can agree upon is we both like the Riviera. Stay kool mon fraire. cheers

P.S. Is that a 155 piece Westward black chrome set I see there Karma? I got the same set, and also sell them all the time! They look so BAD ASS!
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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyTue Apr 27, 2010 6:10 pm

Hometown Hero wrote:

P.S. Is that a 155 piece Westward black chrome set I see there Karma? I got the same set, and also sell them all the time! They look so BAD ASS!

Not Westward, its a Stanley set. I try and buy my tools in black chrome so that when I use the prototype shop Dad doesn't keep saying that I have all *his* tools out. (even if its true.)

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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyTue Apr 27, 2010 6:13 pm

Wasn't sure I have the Stanley as well in my Suzuki lol but I think its only like 90 or 100 pieces.
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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyWed Apr 28, 2010 2:21 pm

whered the posts go...
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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyWed Apr 28, 2010 3:06 pm

97 park ave wrote:
whered the posts go...

All cleaned up. Lets keep things specific to the topic. Anyone is welcome to start a new topic about supercharger painting/supercharger powdercoating/costs of engine replacement/merits of replacing X engine with X/costs of labour/what makes a car worth something to someone/ who knows what about engine building/ in the appropriate section if they wish.

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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyWed Jul 14, 2010 10:07 am

Well, its been awhile, and the mods are mostly done. This project has been done awhile, but life(as we all know it) gets really busy.

So, I figured that I'd better post some pics of the project.

I was in a hurry, so some steps are not photographed, and for that I apologize.


We left off with the new output plate being done, and dry fitted to the SC.

I added some ABS tube that I had kicking around on the stock rack to keep the ColdWeld from spilling into the rotor bore:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3556
This tube fit absolutely perfect and tight. I eyeballed how much needed to be cut off the second ring to intersect. They wedged in together as perfect as can be. It couldn't have been better if I measured it. I dunno what any of you have experienced, but I've been designing and making things for so long; sometimes in a project I'll have a critical "thing" to do, and I'll be in the "zone" and just not measure. I can't count how often it comes out perfect. Its a knack I guess.

Anyway, with the ABS rings blocking off the rotor bore, the small channels under the new output plate got filled with ColdWeld, and the plated was clamped in for a week:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3557

Here you can see the relief holds for the extra goop to exit, as well as the extra around the edges:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3558

Same thing, but masking tape removed:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3559

And inside before gently sanding the new material:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3560
For whatever reason the score marks seem to be normal for the m62, they fill pretty quickly with carbon anyway.

A few random shots:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3562
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3563
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3564
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3565

Cleanup and smoothing started:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3566

Rough smoothing detail:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3567
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3568

Random clean-up pics:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3569
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3570
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3572

For pressing in the new case bearings, I made myself a tool so that the bearings would press to exactly the same depth as stock, with no way to over press it. Basically a rod, with the depth turned on the end. Press it into the hole, and all done:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3573
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3574
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3575
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3576

Finished, new bearings. Never-mind that nice black carbon buildup. Its just from the EGR and won't hurt anything.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3577


Rotors look good, no flaking, and covered in more of that carbon. It should be noted that the "lower grade" epoxy and stuff coating on the m62 rotors is actually a clearish darkish yellow color. Carbon cakes on with use. The m90s have a darker coating, and the genV's coating is actually black.(and kinda fuzzy)
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3579


Instead of cutting the bolts, I opted for some custom spacers. I feel it looks cleaner, even if you will never see them under there:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3580
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3581


Prepped and painted:
Lets not get into issues about painting SC's. This is my last kick as the m62 cat, and I care more about getting rid of the "bland beige" than what little heat I'm trapping. I'm already partway through my m62 to m90 conversion project for the car. Plus, if you look at any reman supercharger, they DO come painted. And it IS just slapped on the old paint.

anyway:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3585

Putting bits back on:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3603
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3604

checking looks with fuel rail:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3605
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3606

Final output pics:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3611
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3612
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMGP3613

And that, is that. Not photographed is the polish work to 120 grit on the inlet. Some people go to a perfect polish, but I feel 120 is plenty. The boost dump passage was also smoothed as it had some abrupt shapes in the walls.

As mentioned in another thread, ive got some phantom knock to sort out at part throttle(even with no boost). But WOT is 0* at all times even in high heat.

but..With the 2.4" pulley, this thing absolutely SCREAMS at WOT. Its been described by those I've passed as sounding like "Satan is under the hood screaming for my soul." Not too subtle, but this car is really a toy anyway.

Anyway, I hope its been interesting!


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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyWed Jul 14, 2010 11:34 am

I can't wait!!!!!!!
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Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyThu Jul 15, 2010 10:18 am

Hometown Hero wrote:
I can't wait!!!!!!!

I'm hoping to have your SC in the mill this weekend.

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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyThu Jul 15, 2010 10:29 am

Sweet... I'm chompin at the bit.
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Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting Empty
PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 5:39 pm

Right.

So things took longer than expected thanks to life, but Klix's output plate is done.

This one was done a little different than my first plate, and makes for a more finished piece IMO.

First, I drained all the SC oil. FYI, this was an A1 Cardone reman m62. We know that the rotors were stripped and the casing painted in the process, but what else is to be found in disassembly.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2136

Since the SC is essentially new, I'm keeping the oil for re-use.

The rotor back slid out easily enough with a gentle tap of a wooden tool I have that sticks through the triangle.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2137

Here we see the nice shiny rotors. I left the rotor-pack pressed against the snout so I don't have to dink around with the coupler.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2138

One thing of note here, is that Cardone seems to have used a grease of different consistency than the Eaton approved needle bearing grease. This appears to just be normal auto grease. Also, you can see below, that one bearing is sparsely, if at all, packed. Is this really a problem for the reman blower? probably not, based on when a stock blower might be deemed "bad" enough to warrant the reman one, I doubt the car will outlive the newer SC. With the lack of a coating, and the stock pulley, this blower would normally put out less omph than the stocker. *however*, this is a great candidate for a smaller pulley and meth injection. Uncoated, you don't have to worry about meth eating the older epoxy coating on the m62, and the meth, in evaporating in the blower casing , forms a thin film on the inner surface and improves efficiency beyond coater rotors. Well, thats what the meth guys say anyway. For this blower, I will repack the bearings with Eaton approved needle bearing grease.

Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2139

Below, we can also see that they have honed the bore to remove any scoring from the previous use. Again, this lowers efficiency, but in theory is a mute point when using meth.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2141

So I taped up the needle bearing holes, and other "orifices" that we don't want chips in:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2142
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2143

And bolted it into the m62 milling machine jig.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2144

As stated in the first post, the 60 degree twist of the rotors meshed at 30 degrees, works out to a "magic" angle of 15 degrees from centerline. It gets clamped into the mill touched off from the face plate, which is square to the stock triangle.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2145

All mounted up and ready to go:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2146

After skimming, and removing approx 1/16(the area of material removed roughly matches the area of silencer holes plugged) from the side edge, I ran a bevel cutter along the inside edge. This is i did not do on the first blower and wish I had. It makes the angles machine perfect, and is much less of a pain than trying to freehand it with a grinder. Plus it looks more professional. wink
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2147
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2148

You can see the bevel here:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2149

Marked off the other angle:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2150

And ran the same:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2151

Finished hogging out the pocket:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2152

Inside views of the inner bevel. This should flow nicely once the corners are broken with the flapper sanders.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2153
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2154
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2155

Insert plate ready for work:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2157

Sized(L,W,H), corners rounded, and then started the pocket:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2158
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2159

Finished pocket with radius:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2161
I used a radius for this one instead of the 45 degree of the first one. Main reasoning is that there is always a step for cutter clearance with the 45, which leave a little lip. The radius I can come right to the bottom of the pocket.

Triangle cut, and radius-ed:
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2162
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2164
Flashing will be cut off.

Mostly finished piece, flashing is cut. Note the top of the triangle is a little lopsided, this is from my blind-cut, and will be easily fixed with the die grinding and polishing.
The upper edge of the casing triangle will be radius-ed by hand since blending is easier that way. Also cleanup of the bolt threads will be done by hand.
Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting IMG_2166


Anyway, more to come during the hand blending.(which I don't need to be at the shop for!)


The next output plate on the go is for a gen V, and will not involve changing the triangle at all, but safely blocking the silencer holes. The jig for the gen V is partly made, and progress will be added to its own thread.



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PostSubject: Re: Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting   Project: Plug silencer holes and new m62 porting EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 5:59 pm

*DROOL*
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Riviera Performance ::   Supercharged 3800 Tech :: Series I Engine & Transmission-
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