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 P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!

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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:46 pm

In English, P1441 means that there is vacuum in the EVAP system that doesn't belong there...

The system checks for conditions that cause the EVAP system to purge continuously by commanding the EVAP canister vent valve ON
and the EVAP purge valve OFF (EVAP canister vent On = valve Closed, EVAP canister purge Off = valve closed...) If fuel tank vacuum level
increases during the test, a continuous purge flow condition is indicated. This can be caused by the following conditions:

* EVAP purge valve leaking.
* EVAP purge and engine vacuum source lines switched at the EVAP purge valve.
* EVAP purge valve control circuit grounded.

If any of these conditions are present, DTC P1441 will set.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:49 pm

akh wrote:
any idea where I could find the pcm wiring scamatics? trying to locate the power wire for the pcm, mine iseems to be dead with no ses light or fuel pump. thanks Anthony

Please go into your Profile and fill out the Signature with your vehicle info...
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:24 pm

BMD wrote:
I just got the same code. I replaced the Evap Purge Valve, but I'm still getting MIL indication. I've been looking online and found that the problem can either be the Valve, the hoses running from the valve to the charcoal cannister, the charcoal cannister itself or a blown fuse from the circuit. Am I on the right track? Where is the fuse in question if that is indeed the problem?

You need to find someone with a Tech2 or similar scan tool that is able to enter diagnostic mode and be able to command the purge and vent solenoids on and off. 99% of the time it's one of those solenoids that goes bad.

Command the purge valve through the increments (10%-20% etc without the engine running) and you should be able to hear AND feel the the valve with your hand...it should "beat" faster with higher percentages and vica versa.

Then command the vent solenoid on and off - it should click every time you do so (located under the vehicle near the gas tank). This clicking is louder than the purge solenoid and can be heard just by stickin you head down there. If you cannot hear it clicking, you need to unplug it, and "jump" the 2 wire pigtail with a test light (low impedance please!). When you command it on and off, the test light should light up and go off respectively....then you know the vent is bad.

**NOTE** you may need to clear the code you have FIRST before attempting these tests.

If one of these components doesn't work, they need to be replaced. I've seen this code with hard part failures (vent solenoid plunger detaches itself from the rod but still works).

If results are non-conclusive, take it to a good repair shop. Vacuum tests and smoke/nitrogen tests are needed. The EVAP system on '96 vehicles will detect a .04 inHg leak and require these tests to find the itty bitty bastard. I hate working on EVAP systems......
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:46 pm

I don't thing a bad vent solenoid would set this particular code... The reason the FSM checklist that I posted above doesn't include
the vent solenoid is that a vent valve that didn't close would leak the vacuum out, and this code is for the undesired presence of vacuum.

Of course, they omitted the vacuum switch itself, and a failure in that circuit would send a "false positive" to the PCM as well...
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:25 pm

Thanks for your response guys and for the info! But even though I've done my fair share of repairs on the Riv and on older vehicles, I find modern evap and electrical systems a little daunting. Having already replaced the evap purge valve, and without a Tech 2 scan tool, I am not sure what my next move should be ?
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:50 pm

Well, technically you don't need a real 'programmer' like a Tech 2... I can't speak for every variation out there today, but because this is part of the OBD/Emissions system, a 'regular' commercial scanner can still command these kind of tests. The really cheap "Kragen-type" pure scanners cannot do it, but my OTC 4000 scanner can manually control things like the purge valve, the IAC, the vent valve, etc...

At this point, I have to reiterate that this code is caused by the PCM thinking that you have vacuum in the EVAP plumbing when you shouldn't... If you have a new purge solenoid, the only possibilities are reversed vacuum lines (which I doubt you have), a command to the purge solenoid that shouldn't be there (check with test light/meter), or a vacuum-switch that is reporting vacuum when it isn't really there. This last one springs to mind because of a post a month or more ago when someone had his pre-98, VIN-1 car throwing codes because the vacuum switch next to the purge valve literally came apart.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:04 am

Thank you Eldo, thats pretty clear, so the vacuum switch is right next to purge solenoid towards the firewall? I'll check it out!
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:17 am

BMD wrote:
Thank you Eldo, thats pretty clear, so the vacuum switch is right next to purge solenoid towards the firewall? I'll check it out!

Yes, a round diaphragm-shaped unit directly in the vacuum line with the purge valve, before 1998.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:10 am

Eldo wrote:
I don't thing a bad vent solenoid would set this particular code... The reason the FSM checklist that I posted above doesn't include
the vent solenoid is that a vent valve that didn't close would leak the vacuum out, and this code is for the undesired presence of vacuum.

Of course one that didn't close wouldn't have vacuum rolleyes . As I stated the diaphragm disconnects from the plunger....closed.....vacuum!!

Again, trying to eliminate the obvious...And I've seen that code MANY times, not just on Riv's. ALL the newer cars have that code. I was stuck chasing down the damn leak, which is why I suggested doing the easy checks first.....
Chances are, it's not the vent. Just tryin to help diagnose the problem without tossing parts at it....Eliminate hard parts first, THEN track down the leak if they all ok.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:01 pm

Abaddon wrote:

Of course one that didn't close wouldn't have vacuum rolleyes . As I stated the diaphragm disconnects from the plunger....closed.....vacuum!!

I suppose that's possible, I don't know what the inside of the valve looks like... But since the FSM states that the vent solenoid is a normally-open type, I expected there to be a spring inside to keep the diaphragm open regardless.

Quote :
... ALL the newer cars have that code. I was stuck chasing down the damn leak, which is why I suggested doing the easy checks first.....
Chances are, it's not the vent. Just tryin to help diagnose the problem without tossing parts at it....Eliminate hard parts first, THEN track down the leak if they all ok.

I'm not tossing parts at it if I say that I don't think the vent solenoid is the problem... Also, you keep mentioning the 'leak'. With this code, wouldn't you be chasing down a kink or blockage (or the reversed hoses)?
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:32 pm

Eldo wrote:
I'm not tossing parts at it if I say that I don't think the vent solenoid is the problem... Also, you keep mentioning the 'leak'. With this code, wouldn't you be chasing down a kink or blockage (or the reversed hoses)?

I apologize if I worded that the wrong way, I wasn't trying to imply that YOU specifically were throwin parts....I'm just saying that with my experience of EVAP systems, all the easy stuff should be checked first because it isn't perfect. I've seen way too many "false" codes set and followed too many flow charts and end up at dead ends....that's all. No hard feelings cheers

We still got a car to fix......
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:55 pm

It looks like there is a fuel line running into it, I'll take a pic tommorrow in the daylight. But it must be carrying gases to the valve not fuel, correct?


Last edited by BMD on Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:00 pm

Yes, that's what the EVAP system does. It is designed to bring evaporated gasoline in the form of fumes back up to the engine to be burned rather than be released to the atmosphere. You can thank the EPA and the tree huggers for another expensive system added to the car of yesterday, today and tomorrow.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:03 pm

Ok thanks Rick. So, is there any caution I should take when removing this line?
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:17 pm

NO OPEN FLAMES, that's all. Really nothing to worry about. Honestly, it's very safe, just don't use your butane torch as a drop light.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:19 pm

Heres a pic of the emission parts in question for what it's worth...

Green: Vacumm Switch
Red: Purge Solenoid

Local parts stores don't carry 'em around here and NAPA is closed today. I hope its not a dealer item. I am sure it will cost and arm and a leg!
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:40 pm

On those parts I would also consider getting used, if you can find them.
BTW, have you been able to positively identify the switch or solenoid valve as being bad by any testing method or are you going to just try and replace and see if you get lucky.?
If that's the case then good used will serve the purpose. But you have to be able to test the used to be sure they are in good working order, or you'll be chasing your tail.
Good Luck
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:18 pm

Well, I don't personally know any mechanics, and the dealership will just change out parts anyway, with labour costs added. So, without the tools or know-how to accurately diagnose the problem, I figure at 14 years of age and with almost 250K on her, these parts are gonna need replacing sooner or later, so why not. It would be different if the parts were very expensive and the work to get to them and replace them was difficult, but thats why this site is so valuable, it gives guys enough info to repair their own cars, with a little luck! wink
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:36 pm

BMD, a couple clarifiers...

-You've already replaced the purge valve (red), haven't you?

-Do you own or have use of some kind of scanner?
Upon re-reading, it sounds like you had the code at first, but later on you only said you had the SES light...
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:37 pm

Yes I have replaced the purge valve and I own a code reader. After replacing the purge valve I turned off the SES light and it stayed off for a couple weeks and then it came back on with the same code.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:02 am

OK... Then the only thing that seems to be possible, if the lines aren't reversed at the new purge valve, is a vent valve that is broken the way that Abaddon described. Either that, or a line between the rear and the engine that is kinked or clogged with carbon granules escaped from the carbon canister.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:27 pm

Eldo wrote:
OK... Then the only thing that seems to be possible, if the lines aren't reversed at the new purge valve, is a vent valve that is broken the way that Abaddon described. Either that, or a line between the rear and the engine that is kinked or clogged with carbon granules escaped from the carbon canister.

Clogged canister perhaps? I've seen those things plug up too....carbon is evil twisted
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:48 pm

Are the canisters serviceable?
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:16 pm

BMD wrote:
Are the canisters serviceable?

Yes they're serviceable. It's located up around the gas tank....near the vent solenoid. You need to have the car on at least jack stands to reach it.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:53 pm

Yeah, I already took a look to see if I could get the lines loose, but they seem brittle and I was afraid to pull too hard on 'em. But I thought if I drop the canister, it might be easier to get the lines out. But if I do get the canister down, how do you service it? Is there a filter inside?


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