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 P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!

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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:15 pm

There is no filter in the canister, it is sold as a unit. Yes, the lines can get brittle, so take caution.....can u please check the vent solenoid first? For me? sad
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BMD
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:21 pm

Rockauto shows a canister filter for our cars? If there is no filter, what part of the canister is serviceable?

Didn't see a solenoid down there, not sure where it is, is it on the canister? And how do I "check" it?
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:26 pm

BMD wrote:
Rockauto shows a canister filter for our cars? If there is no filter, what part of the canister is serviceable?

Didn't see a solenoid down there, not sure where it is, is it on the canister? And how do I "check" it?
.

MMMMkkk. I STAND CORRECTED within myself. Your working on a '96 right??? Vent solenoids weren't introduced to that EVAP system until '97. Your system is vacuum operated, yet still controlled by the PCM. If the purge valve is good, the adjacent control solenoid is good, the vacuum switch is good, then the canister is the only thing left (besides the PCM). As I was suggesting before, a scan tool that can read all of these parameters in real time, and a vacuum gauge is going to save you a crazy headache (which may or may not already be present headbutt ).
If you've replaced all of the parts you mentioned, I would "try" a canister if it's cheap. Otherwise, I recommend taking it to a trusted shop and have it diagnosed. I wish I could help you more, but I've read over and over the testing procedures for this code, and I honestly can't tell you what else to do without the above mentioned tools....
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:24 pm

Scott, you've been more than enough help, you seem quite knowledgable and I appreciate your time and assistance. Also, just to clarify, I have not yet changed the vacumm switch. Found out its a dealer item and retails for $75 CDN. So before I replace that, I though I would put some high pressure air through the hoses to see if they are blocked. I was also hoping to clean the canister out, can you provide some info on that? Also, not sure what adjacent control solenoid you are referring to below?
Abaddon wrote:
If the purge valve is good, the adjacent control solenoid is good, the vacuum switch is good, then the canister is the only thing left (besides the PCM)
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:32 pm

BMD wrote:
Rockauto shows a canister filter for our cars? If there is no filter, what part of the canister is serviceable?

Didn't see a solenoid down there, not sure where it is, is it on the canister? And how do I "check" it?

Just wondering if you have the 1996 FSM that could help identify not only the location of the units but the proper operation and testing procedure.?

And, that dealer item only (vacuum switch), if that's true, would be available from someone on here with extra parts for not much money or Ebay or Morad's or some local junk yard for almost nothing including a used canister...
I don't see the need to pay big dollar's for new for a simple vacuum switch, if that is the problem.
I'd rather buy a used set of manuals and a used switch and canister, which would probably equal or less the cost of a new switch and canister..


Last edited by Rickw on Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BMD
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:44 pm

Haven't got an FSM yet Rick, but to be honest, some of the info in it is too technical for us shade tree mechanics, wink
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:45 pm

But, I would say for the $20.00 - $30.00 that they are available for on EBay is worth it for the the information you can glean from it.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:51 pm

Haven't been lucky enough to find them for that price.
Rickw wrote:
And, that dealer item only (vacuum switch), if that's true, would be available from someone on here with extra parts for not much money or Ebay or Morad's or some local junk yard for almost nothing including a used canister...
I don't see the need to pay big dollar's for new for a simple vacuum switch, if that is the problem.
I'd rather buy a used set of manuals and a used switch and canister, which would probably equal or less the cost of a new switch and canister..
Not sure what you mean by "if thats true" about the vacumm switch being a dealer item. Also, I have checked Morad's aswell as some salvage yards around here with no luck on a used vacuum switch. But I think I'd rather go new anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:04 pm

I didn't mean anything by "if that's true". Was just confirming your statement, that's all.
Also, finding a used 96 at a junkyard, at least here in the states, isn't normally a difficult endeavor given a bit of time.

If you check EBay Motors and look under the parts and accessories section and then click on Manuals - and check frequently you will find a set of manuals for $20-30 at least once per month.
I have bought manual set's recently for other people in that price range because of all the dealerships being closed down here in the US.
There are wholesalers that have bought up the inventory of many dealers for short money and are selling the stuff on EBay.
I just bought a set of manuals for someone last week for $20.00 plus shipping of less than $6.00 for US Media Mail - They charge less for Media or Books than they do for all other types of things.
If you are truly interested in getting a set for your car I will keep my eye's open for you on a near daily basis. That's how I have found deals for not only myself but for other people.
Let me know if you want me to alert you to a good set of used manuals for cheap.
Rick
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:18 pm

BMD wrote:
Scott, you've been more than enough help, you seem quite knowledgable and I appreciate your time and assistance. Also, just to clarify, I have not yet changed the vacumm switch. Found out its a dealer item and retails for $75 CDN. So before I replace that, I though I would put some high pressure air through the hoses to see if they are blocked. I was also hoping to clean the canister out, can you provide some info on that? Also, not sure what adjacent control solenoid you are referring to below?

Here, it won't let me copy and paste, so I'll type it out. This is what the EVAP circuit description is word for word for P1441....

EVAP emiisions canister purge is controlled by a solenoid valve which allows ported vacuum to purge canister when energized (purge on) by the PCM. A vacuum switch in the purge line is used to detect when the system is being purged. PCM supplies and reads EVAP purge vacuum switch signal. If switch is open (purge detected) when not commanded by the PCM, DTC P1441 sets.

It doesn't say this in the description, but I thought it was an interesting find....
....if the vacuum switch IS stuck open, the PCM would detect this on initial KOEO (key on engine off) and more than likely set DTC P1442.

Unfortunately there is no EVAP diagram that I can paste for you....it does say to check the EVAP hoses from the vacuum switch to the canister, and the vapor line from the canister to the fuel tank. No service for the canister is mentioned besides replacement. Although, the parts you found that list a "filter" probably IS the entire canister, as it is a filter itself. Aside from any electrical and/scan tool testing this is it....
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:21 pm

This is where the manual comes in very handy. I'll try and find you a set cheap and you can decide after that. OK.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:26 pm

Thanks guys, this information has helped me and will hopefully help others who run into this problem.

That would be cool Rick, I'll keep an eye out aswell!
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:24 pm

Well, I got a used vacuum switch (as well as few other goodies) off a Park Ave with a Supercharged 3.8 that I found at a wreckers. So, I installed it but when I took my vacuum switch off, it had a 90* rubber elbow that leads to nowhere?


I recall disconnecting that tube off the PA, but didn't check to see where it ran. Is it used as a vent? I do not see any loose connections on my car. When I first installed it on my car the Revs went up abit but they came down to normal levels after a short drive. Anyway, I erased the SES light, so lets see if that takes care of things.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:14 pm

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/ssxt8camaro/SANY0586.jpg

Look at this diagram and see if helps at all.
Just ignore the hand written notes on it.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:50 pm

Thanks Rick, I've seen that pick before, unfortunately it doesnt indicate a third line going to the vacuum switch, just the lines going to the canister and the purge solenoid.
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PostSubject: P0441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sun May 23, 2010 10:48 pm

My 97 SC Riv will randomly throw a P0441 code. Sometimes it will come back within a few miles of a clear, sometimes it will be weeks of driving before it comes back. Does anyone know what can throw this? I swapped the solenoid valve off my original engine for the EVAP system hoping it was that, and tried a gas cap off one of my other cars that never throws a code. I had swapped this engine out when I bought the car, could I have screwed something up?
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Sun May 23, 2010 11:03 pm

P0441 - Evap System no flow during purge.

Evap emission canister purge is controlled by a solenoid valve that allows ported vacuum to purge canister when energized by the PCM. A vacuum switch in the purge line is used to detect when the system is being purged. The PCM supplies and reads a 5 volt reference to this switch. If the switch is closed (non-purge) when commanded by the PCM, DTC P0441 sets.

Sounds like your vacuum switch or a clogged/broken vacuum line is to blame.
If you need me to, I can post the diagnostic procedure, but after reading it, I would bet that the vacuum switch is to blame. In rare(r) cases, an EVAP Purge Canister failure also sets this code.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Mon May 24, 2010 7:47 pm

Thanks for that info. If you could, please post the daignostic procedure. I would like to check out everything before I start throwing parts at it.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Mon May 24, 2010 8:28 pm

Extremely difficult for the average person to diagnose EVAP problems.
Most, if not all times, requires a smoke machine that also has the vacuum and pressure gauges on it to properly simulate the normal and failure mode of your Evap system.

I'm not saying you can't get lucky and find something by ohming valves and such, but there is quite a lot going on with your PCM while monitoring and commanding things in the system.
One of the most difficult systems to trouble shoot even with the correct equipment.
Good Luck though and hope you can find the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Mon May 24, 2010 10:37 pm

I agree with Rick. EVAP is not fun. Being a technician, I dreaded pulling an EVAP code that didn't link to a hard part failure....out came the Nitrogen/Smoke machine. Unfortunately for us, we (Rivs) only have 1 code for the entire system....P0441. I failed to pay attention when I read the procedure, but a diagnostic tool that can command functions is required. I just read the whole thing, and it could be anything.

-Purge Solenoid
-EVAP Canister
-Vacuum Switch
-clogged/broken vacuum line
-broken wire
-and in the worst case, the PCM

If you have the abilities/tools to diagnose this, I will gladly post the entire procedure, all 20 steps of it.
If you cannot, then I recommend that you pay the 1hr checkout to have the car diagnosed at a facility that you trust.

I apologize if I made it sound like less of an issue.....
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Mon May 24, 2010 11:27 pm

Okay... Maybe this is deja vu (did someone just say that?), or maybe it's the limitations of the search function on here. BUT, I would swear that we went through this very same thing a couple of months ago with someone else.

As I inferred, I can't find the thread, but Scott, isn't there also a vent solenoid that's involved with this code?
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Mon May 24, 2010 11:39 pm

Apparently the use of the vent solenoid doesn't apply until '98. What i meant by "us rivs" was '95-97. And yes, we just had a case of this with a different code I believe.
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Mon May 24, 2010 11:50 pm

Abaddon wrote:
Apparently the use of the vent solenoid doesn't apply until '98. What i meant by "us rivs" was '95-97. And yes, we just had a case of this with a different code I believe.

Thanks for the confirmation of my memory... But how can the system test itself without a solenoid to control the venting?
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Tue May 25, 2010 12:18 am

Mine was P1441. I solved my code issue with a new vacuum switch. Although no one could ever tell me where the bottom outlet/inlet goes to. Mine ends with an elbow (pictured in the thread) that goes nowhere?!?
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PostSubject: Re: P0441 / 1441 EVAP Emission Canister Purge - keeps coming back!   Tue May 25, 2010 12:34 am

BMD wrote:
Mine was P1441. I solved my code issue with a new vacuum switch. Although no one could ever tell me where the bottom outlet/inlet goes to. Mine ends with an elbow (pictured in the thread) that goes nowhere?!?

Thanks for confirming I'm not getting senile any faster!
Also, no sweat - that bottom tube is a vent because the pressure switch has to have an atmospheric reference... (and my car doesn't even have the cute little rubber hose attached!)
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