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smoooth225
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PostSubject: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:27 pm

hey fellas. i just picked up my first riv. 96 with 191k. yes i know that's a lot of miles but at $400 and how pretty she looked i had to go for it. i've always admired the uniqueness of the 95-99 rivs. i saw it on craigslist after searching for a couple of weeks and i bought it from a fellow fireman in nj (i'm in ny). drove it home (about 100 miles) body is straight, paint is good. now for the troubles. and if this is too long and/or i'm in the wrong forum i apologize in advance:

driveability:
1. check engine light is on (steady). the riv has a slightly rough idle and stumbles upon heavy acceleration. the exhaust seems a little loud, apparently near the cat. i looked and there are no obvious holes or cracks.the previous owner states the riv needs a egr valve. he also said there is a leak in the fuel tank but it only leaks when you fill the tank over 3/4. he gave me a used unit he bought but never installed. on my way home i stopped at autozone and had them ck for codes. three came up
A) p1406--egr pintle position circuit (the egr problem)
B)P0300 --cylinder misfire detected, random cylinders
C)p0171---fuel trim bank one condition

now i'm guessing that i need a new egr valve and maybe an o2 sensor for the front bank but i'm just a newbie. there may be something i'm missing or some other things i should ck. would the leak in the tank trigger some codes? what do you guys think?

other stuff:

1) the p/o also said "your also going to need a blower motor" he also had a new one to go along with the car and removed the old one. but when i got home the new one just has the motor, and not the fan wheel. i hooked the new motor up to the wires in the car that were cut from the old motor (purple and black) no dice. then i tested the new motor to a battery--it was good. the old motor was not good upon testing. what next?

2) "the traction off" light is on. it stays on even when you hit the traction button on the dash.

3) there is a continuous hum from the rear of the car. it sounds like a electrical motor thats running. it hummed the whole drive back. me and the p/o couldnt figure it out. i thought it might be the fuel pump cause i put my hand on the fuel tank and it was vibrating. it starts when you put the key to "run"

so that's about it. i thank you guys for reading all this. and thank you for the anticipated direction of a new dude with his first riv. even if it is only to say "put it in such and such forum)
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:44 pm

A bad EGR valve will cause all of those codes......

As for the blower motor not working, the Blower Motor Control Module is probably bad, which is why it wouldn't work when you hooked it up to the connector.

The hum in the rear. It's possible the fuel pump makes that much noise, but unlikely. Chances are you have an air leak in the rear shock/compressor assembly causing the air compressor to continuosly run.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:44 pm

Hi Pick, welcome to our board! Nothing wrong with a 190+k mile Riv. Mine has 209k miles and still runs like new.

Regarding your issues, I would encourage you to do some searching around the board and feel free to post in existing threads, even if they seem old. If you can't find what you're looking for, please starte a new thread describing your specific problem. The idea is to have separate threads for the driveability issue, the blower motor (this exists), and hum from the rear (hint, this exists, try searching for Automatic Level Control).

Again, welcome aboard. smile

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
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BMD
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:51 pm

Welcome pick from a fellow '96 Riv owner. If the body is straight as you said, then you got a steal at $400. I liitle more money to solve some of your issues and a tune up, and youre good to go. What a great board eh pick, within minutes Scott was able offer up some great advice, enjoy!
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:12 pm

AA wrote:
(this exists), and hum from the rear (hint, this exists, try searching for Automatic Level Control).

Forgot about that one. Yes, air leak, or broken ELC link will do it....It's mounted on the driver side rear lower control arm, and goes to a little sensor. You can't miss it. Stick your head under the car behind the LR tire and look forward.....
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:26 pm

Right, and the pump (that makes the humming noise) is on the rear passenger side.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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smoooth225
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PostSubject: thanks   Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:28 pm

thank all you guys for your help. and fast help! i'm going out right now to check out that possible alc leak & search through the board some more later this afternoon. i'm looking for a new egr valve today too. i'm feeling at home already.
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:07 pm

smoooth225 wrote:
hey fellas. i just picked up my first riv. 96 with 191k. yes i know that's a lot of miles but at $400 and how pretty she looked i had to go for it. i've always admired the uniqueness of the 95-99 rivs. i saw it on craigslist after searching for a couple of weeks and i bought it from a fellow fireman in nj (i'm in ny). drove it home (about 100 miles) body is straight, paint is good. now for the troubles. and if this is too long and/or i'm in the wrong forum i apologize in advance:

driveability:
1. check engine light is on (steady). the riv has a slightly rough idle and stumbles upon heavy acceleration. the exhaust seems a little loud, apparently near the cat. i looked and there are no obvious holes or cracks.the previous owner states the riv needs a egr valve. he also said there is a leak in the fuel tank but it only leaks when you fill the tank over 3/4. he gave me a used unit he bought but never installed. on my way home i stopped at autozone and had them ck for codes. three came up
A) p1406--egr pintle position circuit (the egr problem)
B)P0300 --cylinder misfire detected, random cylinders
C)p0171---fuel trim bank one condition

now i'm guessing that i need a new egr valve and maybe an o2 sensor for the front bank but i'm just a newbie. there may be something i'm missing or some other things i should ck. would the leak in the tank trigger some codes? what do you guys think?

other stuff:

1) the p/o also said "your also going to need a blower motor" he also had a new one to go along with the car and removed the old one. but when i got home the new one just has the motor, and not the fan wheel. i hooked the new motor up to the wires in the car that were cut from the old motor (purple and black) no dice. then i tested the new motor to a battery--it was good. the old motor was not good upon testing. what next?

2) "the traction off" light is on. it stays on even when you hit the traction button on the dash.

3) there is a continuous hum from the rear of the car. it sounds like a electrical motor thats running. it hummed the whole drive back. me and the p/o couldnt figure it out. i thought it might be the fuel pump cause i put my hand on the fuel tank and it was vibrating. it starts when you put the key to "run"

so that's about it. i thank you guys for reading all this. and thank you for the anticipated direction of a new dude with his first riv. even if it is only to say "put it in such and such forum"

Here is some stuff to think about as you go looking at the threads for the problems you're having.

1) what to fix first.

Fix the obvious stuff first. The leak in the tank is a problem, I bet it's a fitting on the tank like the fuel inlet or the lock ring for the fuel pump. FInd a fuel tank thread to see how to swap it. Your big problem will be the lock ring on the tank, thay are usually rusted rotten by this time. If the one on your replacement tank is good you're all set, though, you can drain & drop the tank then swap tanks. You *may* want to put in a new fuel pump module, or replace the motor and level sensor on the one you have, as preventive maintenance.

At the same time, go ahead and replace the EGR valve. It's a GM 3800 engine, they ain't hiding the EGRs and they are not that expensive either. Also, GM dealers have a cleaning tank and solution that cleans them up pretty well if you don't want to replace it for whatever reason. You might want to do both - get and install replacement and have the one you pull cleaned up to keep for spare. It's your call.

If the exhaust has no holes (when it is cold use a pair of pliers to squeeze it to find soft spots) you probably have a problem with a gasket at one or another flange. Look for soot by each flange. If you see any, any at all, consider replacing that gasket, they are cheap too, and you will likely need to replace the studs and nuts so get them too when you get the gasket.

It is not obvious right this minute that you need an O2 sensor, although based on age and mileage it's probably somewhat weak. If the car had dealer service and teh tech was aware, the engine computer got flashed with a routine that compensates for readings from weak O2 sensors (some time ago). When you have a scanner and can read the O2 output yourself you can decide if it's weak enough to swap. There is no 'front bank' O2 sensor, there is an 'upstream' (ahead of cat) and 'downstream' (after-cat) sensor. IIRC, recognition of a Fuel Trim problem is calculated using engine timing and sensor readings. Your timing issue has a cause that probably is not the O2 sensor.

The blower motor problem could be the blower motor control, not the motor.

The "traction off" condition is probably due to a hard code set from one or more wheel sensors that have quit. Look for broken wires to the hubs & repair the wire or replace that hub (sensors not serviceable). If you have to replace a hub, suggest you get a BCA, SKF or Timken and *nothing else* these cars are heavy and chew up economy hubs. Also look at the brake fluid. If it is darker than honey you have water in the brake fluid and you really should flush it using a power bleeder. You can have a shop do this or build/buy a bleeder and do it yourself.

The hum from the rear may be the level-ride compressor. It should not start immediately when the car starts and it should stop after a time out. It also may be the fuel pump, if your tank has a leak then the fuel pump may be running open -loop and so you'd hear it all the time. With the car sitting on the ground normally trace an air line from one or the other rear shock to find the level ride compressor. turn the key to 'on' position, see if the level ride compressor really is the thing making noise. You need to figure out which is making the noise and take it from there in the appropriate thread.

2) Get the tools needed to go after the tougher problems. You will need to do your own scanning for codes and resetting. Look around the site for info on scanners and pick one you like, then get it.

3) Reset the codes and clear the code memory. Do this after fixing the obvious problems You may have a wiring issue, carefully visually check the wiring harness at the large connector on the engine compartment side of the firewall for spliced and / or broken wires.

Hope this helps

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:08 pm

Welcome!

AA and albertj have already pointed you wayyyy into the right direction to fix your problems, so enjoy the site and your Riv!
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:40 pm

youre right deekster, aa and albertj are the man! (or in this case, the men) matter of fact, all you cats are the man.

albertj: i got under the car to check for air leaks or problems w the als-- no dice. so i got in the trunk to check out the fuel pump. the fuel pump was the culprit. its def what was making the noise and what was strange is i didnt see the metal lock ring on the fuel tank. i did see a heavy zip tie holding the fuel pump in place. one of the previous owners replaced the fuel pump last summer, about 7000 miles ago. (one of the p/o's listed all of the repairs and maintenance from 04 to 09) possibly thats where the leak is coming from. so my plan is to install the fuel tank that the p/o provided.

i also removed the egr valve and attempted to clean it. i reinstalled and got happy for a moment--the check engine light was off! but when i took it for a test drive and got on the gas, it returned and then also started blinking. i shut of the engine, restarted and the light was on, but not blinking. maybe its time to bite the bullet and get a new egr.

i'm on the lookout for a blower motor fan (or the whole blower motor) and the module. again thank you all. ive been members of bmw and cadillac forums and you guys blow them away.
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:34 pm

smoooth225 wrote:
youre right deekster, aa and albertj are the man! (or in this case, the men) matter of fact, all you cats are the man.

albertj: i got under the car to check for air leaks or problems w the als-- no dice. so i got in the trunk to check out the fuel pump. the fuel pump was the culprit. its def what was making the noise and what was strange is i didnt see the metal lock ring on the fuel tank. i did see a heavy zip tie holding the fuel pump in place. one of the previous owners replaced the fuel pump last summer, about 7000 miles ago. (one of the p/o's listed all of the repairs and maintenance from 04 to 09) possibly thats where the leak is coming from. so my plan is to install the fuel tank that the p/o provided.

i also removed the egr valve and attempted to clean it. i reinstalled and got happy for a moment--the check engine light was off! but when i took it for a test drive and got on the gas, it returned and then also started blinking. i shut of the engine, restarted and the light was on, but not blinking. maybe its time to bite the bullet and get a new egr.

i'm on the lookout for a blower motor fan (or the whole blower motor) and the module. again thank you all. ive been members of bmw and cadillac forums and you guys blow them away.

If I am not mistaken, the dealers use a certain solvent in an ultrasonic parts cleaning tank to clean EGR valves. Before I owned a GM car I'd take other cars (a Volvo, couple Chryslers, a Ford, A Subaru) to a GM dealer to get the EGR serviced (some dealers will do this for a non-GM car if the non-GM car is otherwise out of warranty, some won't). Anyway, if you get the EGR via mail order a decent one will run about $100 - $130. The thing that probably spooked one or more of the POs is that if they just walk into a dealer to get a replacement they are about $180-$200 I think, and then there's a shop hour to install. Just get a manual and do it yourself...

Because there are so many issues it is tough to tell if your CEL wnet off and on because of the EGR or something else. I Think You Need A Code Reader... (and a service manual -- check eBay)

As for the heater fan if you move quick onto rockauto.com they have VDO (top maker) fan on wholesaler closeout for under $40, and Delco fan control modules (12368388) for under $100. For used Riv parts try contacting moradpartscompany.com, a bunch of people use them usually with good results although there was a problem with a wiring harness he supplied to one member of this site.

Albertj




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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:04 pm

Wow, first one to reply, and get no credit...... cry
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:04 pm

I got 'ya Scott! happy
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:38 am

my apologies abaddon and bmd . i thought i got you when i said "all you cats are the man." ab, you hit me with the quick reply (the first!) and i appreciate it. bmd, thanks for your input and the warm welcome . aa, thanks for the encouraging words, the alc hint, and shoving me in the right direction concerning where to look in the forums. you guys are cooler than a polar bear sipping a milkshake in a snowstorm. no joke.
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:56 am

BMD wrote:
I got 'ya Scott! happy


thumbsup

I just think it's funny how that whole scenario panned out. suspect

Glad to hear you found the humming in the rear. I don't think I've ever heard of such a ghetto repair. The fuel pump was zip-tied in? WTF??!!

Sometimes you can clean an EGR, sometimes you can't. The rod that the pintle is on freezes inside the valve, which is why the cleaning you did didn't help.

Is ABS light on with the TRAC light? A bad hub will turn on the ABS and the TRAC light. The Traction system may be disabled due to the bad running condition.

"Cooler than a Polar Bear sipping a milkshake" LOL.
You'd be surprised at how in depth some of us are about these cars. It's quite sickening actually. I've often considered having sex with.....wait, I mean IN the Riv nervous
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:57 pm

yeah that fuel tank thing was crazy. at least i didnt have to drop the tank first to find out. gotta love that trunk access panel. i intend on changing the tank sooner than later. just the traction light is on, and its not on when you start the car, but comes on within the first 2 min of driving. yes, you guys are serious about these rivs. it's a good thing though. ab if your interior is tan it appears we have the same color combo.
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:05 am

ok let me update you guys on what i did

--i went to a junkyard in northern nj and got a blower motor and module from a 95 riv ($30). when i went to install the motor i found that someone in the past must have got frustrated at one point and ripped the motor out because 2 of the 3 tabs where you attach the motor screws where broken off. i rigged it up with the help of some zip ties and i have air. well warm air.cause the ac aint working. but i will ck that out at another time.

-- i got a egr valve from a recently totalled '99 lesabre for $20. i also changed the plugs (after reading the tips on the board for the rear plugs. those rear plugs were no joke getting out) after the plug and egr valve change i went to autozone for a code ck. the egr code went away but i still have the other 2 codes (p0300--multiple misfire, p0171-- lean condition bank 1). i havent put the new fuel tank in yet. maybe the leak in the tank is causing the codes. maybe the cat? any ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:09 am

i should add that after the plug and egr valve change the car runs better but still bogs down under hard acceleration. the ses light is on, but no longer blinking.
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:31 am

Your multiple misfire and lean condition codes, as well as the bog under load, could all be caused by a dirty MAF sensor, which would not throw a code, or a vacuum leak. Check ALL your vacuum lines, they are notorious for having rot at the T connectors, or the lines themselves cracking.
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:52 am

smoooth225 wrote:
ok let me update you guys on what i did

--i went to a junkyard in northern nj and got a blower motor and module from a 95 riv ($30). when i went to install the motor i found that someone in the past must have got frustrated at one point and ripped the motor out because 2 of the 3 tabs where you attach the motor screws where broken off. i rigged it up with the help of some zip ties and i have air. well warm air.cause the ac aint working. but i will ck that out at another time.

-- i got a egr valve from a recently totalled '99 lesabre for $20. i also changed the plugs (after reading the tips on the board for the rear plugs. those rear plugs were no joke getting out) after the plug and egr valve change i went to autozone for a code ck. the egr code went away but i still have the other 2 codes (p0300--multiple misfire, p0171-- lean condition bank 1). i havent put the new fuel tank in yet. maybe the leak in the tank is causing the codes. maybe the cat? any ideas?

Any ideas? The idea is to fix all the obvious problems first, and then clear the codes.

Here is the general problem. The principle here is "signal to noise ratio." That is, in radio broadcasting the quality of the radio signal depends in part on the quality of the intended waveform and in part on the noise that is intorduced by the environment. The analogy for you is you have a lot of small problems that are introducing "noise" (codes) into your environment. So some codes indicate worn out or malfunctioning parts and other codes are there only because something dumb is busted and it's fooling the sensors into thinking there is a problem.

As it is, the multiple problems you have are creating a LOT of noise. You have to fix all the obvious problems in order to get the "noise" level down. There's really no 2 ways about it. Until you do that, the codes are as likely to be conflicting and confusing as they are to be telling you anything useful.

That said, you are doing very well getting the problems fixed, and also very well finding inexpensive parts (the EGR) and at using the info already on the board (the plugs) as guidance. Pat yourself on the back and keep at it, you'll soon get it all fixed - again, fix all the obvious problems and then let's check the codes again -- if in fact any problems remain.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:31 am

deekster and albert j: sage advice. i'll get on it and report back. thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:13 am

ok guys i'm back. i have a lot to share and it's not all good. let me begin:

shortly after my last post, i drove the riv down to northern nj (union city) and got stuck there. its about a 60 mile drive from my home.by the time i got to my destination, the car had almost no power and could only manage to do about 10 mph. i knew the car would not make it home so i took it to a shop down there that i have frequented before with good results and explained the history to the mechanic. i also brought him the new gas tank to install. on his inital assessment of the car he suggested that he was getting multiple misfire codes and a egr code and the car needed a egr valve. i explained to him that i recently installed a used egr valve and asked him "are you sure its bad". his reply was " yes, the pintle was stuck" we struck a deal that he would install the used gas tank,both o2 sensors, egr valve, catalytic converter and 6 new plugs for $ 275. i provided a new egr valve, both o2 sensors,a new universal cat (magnaflow) and 6 new ac delco plugs. so he says ok, the car is finished, and is running well. i get it back and drivie it for about 120 miles. the car runs good,idles good, but upon heavy acceleration it still bogs down. stutters. i should also mention the fuel pump still hums. i take the car back to the mechanic and he says "let me take the car home overnight with the computer attached so i could see what is going on" i say ok. he calls and suggests someone may have replaced the ecm with a ecm that is not original to that car. he says at under heavy acceleration, when the car stutters, the "ecm is not communicating with the rest of the car" thus the hesitation and stuttering. he also suggests that the car is still giving a code "for bank one" even though he replaced the front o2 sensor. he says i should consider just driving the car like it is because the ecm is very expensive or he will contact a friend of his at another shop that "will adjust the computer to communicate to the car" i said ok contact him and get a price. i was considering myself just getting an ecu from a local junkyard for $35 and putting it in.

what do you guys think? and if any of you guys are mechanics and are within a days drive of ny and could graciously help me out i would appreciate it! i dont mind helping out or throwing a couple of bucks to someone i can trust and i trust the dudes on this board. thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:31 am

Well, for starters, there is NO SUCH THING as "adjust the ECM to communicate with the car". That's ridiculous. And, if your PCM were bad, it wouldn't act up only under a load. If the PCM were for a different car, it would shift funny, and run funny all the time.
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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:33 pm

Add to that the fact that we don't even have Bank 2 sensors! tongue

We have Heated Oxygen Sensor 1-Bank 1 and Heated Oxygen Sensor 2-Bank 1...
On a scan-tool, they probably read as HO2S1B1 and HO2S2B1.
The former is the front sensor and the latter is the rear sensor.

I think you need to find someone who is more familiar with both computer controls and Buicks...
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: just picked up my first riv-'96 supercharged-but need help.   Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:54 pm

Eldo wrote:
Add to that the fact that we don't even have Bank 2 sensors! tongue

We have Heated Oxygen Sensor 1-Bank 1 and Heated Oxygen Sensor 2-Bank 1...
On a scan-tool, they probably read as HO2S1B1 and HO2S2B1.
The former is the front sensor and the latter is the rear sensor.

I think you need to find someone who is more familiar with both computer controls and Buicks...

Agreed.

What you can do is find the PCM (it's behind the glove box) - it will have some numbers on it, You'll need to take out the glove box to read them (easier than it sounds, the hinge unscrews at the bottom edge just look you'll see it) and post them; we can check at least if the PCM is the right part number. This is largely to give you peace of mind.

As for your other problem, eventually we will find it.

Help me out here.... why did you replace the cat? And by the way the GM dealers give like an $80 core charge for the OE cats. Did you get your core $$?

Albertj
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