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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 6:41 pm

Hello,

I seem to have a weird problem with my car.

When the engine is cool (overnight or when I walk out of work), the engine will start right up with the click of a key. If I shut the car off and run into a store and walk back out, the crank time can be anywhere from 5-15s before it thinks about starting, with the longest I counted being approximately 23 seconds.

The coil packs were recently replaced because of a misfire, along with the CAM sensor and Coolant temp sensor.

Any help is appreciated.
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Mr.Riviera
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 7:26 pm

I'll assume this is a 95 S/C riv.
Do you have a check engine light?
When you say long crank do you mean the starter is turning over and the motor is trying to start but it just wont stay running?
How many miles on the car?
Does it do this with a full tank of gas? the fuel pump may be overheating and not giving full pressure once the car is warmed up.

_________________
1996 with 254k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs. -RIP
AMG C400 White on black -daily
Long Crank? Dsc_0110
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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 7:32 pm

]I'll assume this is a 95 S/C riv. -- yes
Do you have a check engine light? -- no light, code for EGR Pintile Position
When you say long crank do you mean the starter is turning over and the motor is trying to start but it just wont stay running? -- Correct, car starter cranks with no fire
How many miles on the car? -- Just hit 168k today
Does it do this with a full tank of gas? the fuel pump may be overheating and not giving full pressure once the car is warmed up. -- Fuel Level does not effect this, it has been doing it with full tank or when on a quarter., and remembering back my fuel pressure car off key on is about 35, 33 psi running.
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Mr.Riviera
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 7:36 pm

when you fill up the tank with fresh (cool) gas do you still have the same issue?
Do you have a way to check the fuel pressure when cranking? i believe auto zone rents one of these gauges. (taps into the schrader valve on the fuel rail for the 96+ car)

I dont think the 95's had a procedure for this but replacing the cam sensor sometimes requires a CASE learn to make sure the crank and cam timing are accurate. If this is your problem you would have the same issue regardless of when you are starting the car.

_________________
1996 with 254k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs. -RIP
AMG C400 White on black -daily
Long Crank? Dsc_0110
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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 7:44 pm

I have a fuel pressure guage, I'll do this tommorrow sometime and report back.
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Mr.Riviera
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 8:03 pm

another thing that came to mind is the battery. How old is yours, is it a GM battery, and are the terminals clean?
Our cars require a lot of CCA's you might want to check the voltage at the battery when you are seeing the problem.

_________________
1996 with 254k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs. -RIP
AMG C400 White on black -daily
Long Crank? Dsc_0110
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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 8:19 pm

Ok willdo, battery was from last november it was a group series 79 rated at 850 CCa 1000 CA. The terminals were spotless

And thanks for the help.
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BMD
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 10:54 pm

Might not hurt to clean the MAF sensor with MAF specific spray cleaner.
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robotennis61
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 11:08 pm

yeah,also check the fuel regulator while yur there.
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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 11:29 pm

robotennis61 wrote:
yeah,also check the fuel regulator while yur there.

The regulator works, was one of the first things I checked. I get a 10 psi or so boost in psi with it removed.
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robotennis61
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu May 19, 2011 11:31 pm

My 95's injectors were hopelessly clogged.U should consider getting a junked set of injectors at a local yard,and send them out to be cleaned...makes a HUGE difference

Do a search for clogged cats too. My oem was allmost fused shut!
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97 park ave
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyFri May 20, 2011 12:32 am

Crank sensor.
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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyFri May 20, 2011 12:43 am

97 park ave wrote:
Crank sensor.

Ok, will check that out too.

Thanks for all the replies guys.
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albertj
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyFri May 20, 2011 4:40 pm

brandonlong wrote:
97 park ave wrote:
Crank sensor.

Ok, will check that out too.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

YEah, crank sensor based on all the other stuff you did. When the OE crank sensors fail they go "bad warm" - when engine is stone cold they will work and once they get heatsoaked (engine is warmed up that's all it really means) they open up (it's a hall effect sensor with a signal conditioning circuit inside I am told) and quit working. Mechanics will replace your fuel pump, ignition switch and all sorts of other stuff before getting to the crank sensor. Why?

Because when it goes bad it won't throw any code at all.


Major pain. Not too tough to replace but you have to pull the harmonic balancer and you no kidding need to use the correct puller or you'll crack the rubber in the balancer and it will fail (sooner rather than) later.

There's other posts on this forum about pulling the balancer, what tool to use and what bolts you need and so on.

Albertj
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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyFri May 20, 2011 6:57 pm

albertj wrote:
brandonlong wrote:
97 park ave wrote:
Crank sensor.

Ok, will check that out too.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

YEah, crank sensor based on all the other stuff you did. When the OE crank sensors fail they go "bad warm" - when engine is stone cold they will work and once they get heatsoaked (engine is warmed up that's all it really means) they open up (it's a hall effect sensor with a signal conditioning circuit inside I am told) and quit working. Mechanics will replace your fuel pump, ignition switch and all sorts of other stuff before getting to the crank sensor. Why?

Because when it goes bad it won't throw any code at all.


Major pain. Not too tough to replace but you have to pull the harmonic balancer and you no kidding need to use the correct puller or you'll crack the rubber in the balancer and it will fail (sooner rather than) later.

There's other posts on this forum about pulling the balancer, what tool to use and what bolts you need and so on.

Albertj

My dad says he knows a trick to do these without pulling the balancer, so we'll see wink I'm gonna pick one up for him and let him do it.

And thanks for all the advice guys, it's just killing me to get it to start right up, more security of knowing it'll start the first time and always start wink
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Mr.Riviera
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyFri May 20, 2011 7:07 pm

brandonlong wrote:


My dad says he knows a trick to do these without pulling the balancer, so we'll see wink I'm gonna pick one up for him and let him do it.

And thanks for all the advice guys, it's just killing me to get it to start right up, more security of knowing it'll start the first time and always start wink

please share if he does. That would be like changing the push rods without taking off the valve covers.

_________________
1996 with 254k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs. -RIP
AMG C400 White on black -daily
Long Crank? Dsc_0110
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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyFri May 20, 2011 7:13 pm

Mr.Riviera wrote:
brandonlong wrote:


My dad says he knows a trick to do these without pulling the balancer, so we'll see wink I'm gonna pick one up for him and let him do it.

And thanks for all the advice guys, it's just killing me to get it to start right up, more security of knowing it'll start the first time and always start wink

please share if he does. That would be like changing the push rods without taking off the valve covers.

We'll see, says he's done a ton of them before.
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albertj
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptySat May 21, 2011 3:38 am

brandonlong wrote:
Mr.Riviera wrote:
brandonlong wrote:


My dad says he knows a trick to do these without pulling the balancer, so we'll see wink I'm gonna pick one up for him and let him do it.

And thanks for all the advice guys, it's just killing me to get it to start right up, more security of knowing it'll start the first time and always start wink

please share if he does. That would be like changing the push rods without taking off the valve covers.

We'll see, says he's done a ton of them before.

I agree, if he can do that replacement w/o pulling the balancer please post a short writeup with pictures.

I will give you a hint: The crank pulley/harmonic balancer has a steel tone wheel that runs thru a notch on the crank sensor.

On the other hand the *cam* sensor is by the water pump and I have replaced that myself on my Riv while standing in the driveway--without really even getting my hands very dirty. A little silicone grease on the o-ring and wha-la in it goes.

So... do tell please... he may be thinking he does not have to pull the engine balance shaft mechanism, which is true. But getting behind that crank pulley would be a men trick.
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97 park ave
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyMon May 23, 2011 9:32 am

Any updates?
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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyMon May 23, 2011 8:27 pm

No, it won't be till this weekend, I don't have the cash for a crank sensor this week. Had to pay my car insurance bill *gasps for air*
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97 park ave
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyTue May 31, 2011 8:06 pm

popcorn
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Northeast
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyThu Jun 02, 2011 11:14 am

robotennis61 wrote:
My 95's injectors were hopelessly clogged.U should consider getting a junked set of injectors at a local yard,and send them out to be cleaned...makes a HUGE difference!

+1
Stuck injector
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brandonlong
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 7:36 pm

Got the crank sensor in today, still no difference.

Did end up pulling the harmonic balancer :p, he was thinking something else idn? got it done took about 30 minutes and a run to home depot.

Fuel pressures are as shown:

Key On Engine off:

Long Crank? DSCF0063

Key On Engine On:

Long Crank? DSCF0064

Key On Engine On, Vacuum to Fuel Pressure Regulator disconnected:

Long Crank? DSCF0065

And on the Injectors, would it cause a rough idle and bad restart only warm? I've also seen similar problems due to Fuel Pump / Fuel Delivery.

One thing is I do need to change the fuel Filter, but the steel line is basically rotted away. Maybe tomorrow I'll pickup the dorman line repair kit and a filter and whip those in see if that helps (filter looks original, 169k)

Also just replaced the shocks, what I think are the originals after 169k (one of them snapped frown ), and whoa what a ride difference.
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robotennis61
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 7:52 pm

Good job buddy!
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97 park ave
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Long Crank? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Long Crank?   Long Crank? EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 8:15 pm

Lookin like a fuel pump with that pressure, obviously change the filter and re-test before dropping the tank
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