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 I Still Love You Bill Porter

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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: I Still Love You Bill Porter   Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:01 am

AA wrote:
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3800 series II has upgrades readily available, yes... ONLY because of the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, and people's obsessions to drag race it. without the Grand Prix, there would be NO upgrade options for this car worth getting.
That fact is irrelevant - the mods are available. Without the Buick 3800 V-6, there would be no GTP!

Quote :
but you can't even fit big boxes in it, and whpo's gunna mod a towing hitch on a sleek luxury car? lol
I once fit a table saw in the back seat. I'll give you the model number if you want to stop by Home Depot and try it. Who's gonna put a hitch on a Riv? I did. It was easy because the receiver was made especially to fit '95-99 Rivieras. 4 bolts, done in about an hour. Even better, the rear adjustable air suspension compensates for the weight of the trailer load, keeping the car perfectly level. Best of all, the hitch is near invisible when not in use, and adds about 35 lbs of weight at the extreme rear of the car, improving weight distribution. PS - I have a friend with a hitch on his 427 Cobra.

Quote :
are you sure about .9 lateral G's? It never seemed to corner that well for me, but that could be because I'm using my step dad's rivvy that traction control doesn't work on and it has bad tires.
I'm sure that's what the accelerometer on my car-mounted iPhone recorded (it was .94 G). Some will point out the iPhone can't be very accurate - to them I say take an iPhone and put it flat on a table: 0 G. Then tip it 90 to the table: 1.00 G. Accurate enough for me.

Anyone who seriously modifies for handling performance will tell you tires are about 90% of a car's handling potential. I run wide, sticky, summer-only rubber. Also those giant Addco sway bars and KYB struts are probably helping, too. The cool part is that all of the suspension mods cost less than the tires.

Rivieras sold for between $27-35k, with some extra options pushing the price higher. Depreciation is a fact of life, no matter what kind of car you have. Drive it off the lot and you lose thousands (in case of a lemon).

Quote :
I chose to back up my argument with real numbers because it's hard to refute actual evidence.
Where are these numbers? My numbers come from Norwalk raceway, SCCA autocross, fuel logs, accelerometers, and a Dyno Jet machine.


Sorry but an iphone doesn't mean jack for an accelerometer test to have proven lateral G's. there's no way a rivvy will out pefrom a 96 viper which was legendary for performance at it's time. a few more mods wou;dv'e put your rivvy well under 12 seconds in a quarter mile, faster than a 96 viper, yet the viper would DESTROY any rivvy, even a 700 horsepower rebuilt engine rivvy on the laguna seca speedway.

I don't doubt any of your other stats though. the 3800 series II engine is among the best 6 cylinder engines ever built. Personally I think the VR38DETT engine is the best 6 cyl engine so far followed by some straight six's like cummings engines and porsche engines. straight six's are phenominal torque monsters.

anyway, I don't know why we're arguing. It seems you like caddy's buicks's and the veyron for what they are, meanwhile I'd take an RX7 with an LSX 376 swap, lotus, vipers for what they are.

No point in arguing when they are personal preference, but I'm never going to drive a performance car like that for a daily driver anyway, making the buick a great car for what it is performance cars really shouldn't be a daily driver anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: I Still Love You Bill Porter   Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:57 am

Porsche never made a straight 6, they were always fans of the boxer-6. I would know because I have EVERY intention of owning a 911 at some point in my life and my dad was a porsche mechanic from 1988 until 1996.

Now the toyota straight 6....as much as I dislike the supra/sc300...I love the 2JZ block. My friend has a NA supra with the NA straight 6 and he absolutely loves the easy maintenance and quick startup on the thing. Has he ever thought of racing it? Not really....he actually just likes having clean paint and being seen with his girl (darn supra guys always get the luck with the blondes....it's unfair I tell ya!) But that thing is more civilized than my riv at slower speeds. I do recommend that if you get the chance to ride or drive in a last gen supra. It's a surprisingly different take on the american muscle-coupe. Toyota wants us to think of it as a sports car but really it has the room and attitude of a GT car rather than a sports car but really it does a good job as a GT cruiser. The SC300 was a worthy competitor to the riv, trading some interior space and comfort for the superior handling of the supra. I personally think most of their owners are, to put it lightly, highly irritating but that really isn;t a fault of the car.
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PostSubject: Re: I Still Love You Bill Porter   Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:06 am

Well, that was my bad then, I thought the 911 GT3 RS was a 3.8L straight 6, turns out it's a flat 6. Impressive.

Dyslexia really isn't an excuse for misinformation, retarded on my part.

The skyline R34 was a straight 6 though right? =] great car.
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PostSubject: Re: I Still Love You Bill Porter   Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:00 am

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Sorry but an iphone doesn't mean jack for an accelerometer test to have proven lateral G's. there's no way a rivvy will out pefrom a 96 viper which was legendary for performance at it's time.
That's easy to say, harder to prove - like saying a watch isn't accurate because it's not a Rolex. Because gravity, like time, is constant, a quick test can prove the accuracy of the meter. If I take the cheapest digital watch I can find and mark its time next to the world atomic clock, then check it 100 minutes later, I can deduce if that instrument is accurate to 100 mins +/- x number of mins/secs. If the watch proves accurate enough, we can rely on it to provide accurate time measurement up to the number of minutes in the test. The watch could be $.49 from a Chinese flea market - if it passes the test, it's accurate, because time is constant.

Using the same idea, and a much simpler test, we can verify the accuracy of the iPhone's accelerometers. Since gravity is constant when measured on the ground, we can always know with certainty that the force being exerted "down" is 1.00 G. In a car during a hard corner, the same force is being exerted "out". But 1.00 G is 1.00 G, regardless of direction. We don't need to be in a car to test this, as gravity is all around us, and like the atomic clock, it's constant. Setting the iPhone flat on a table, calibrate to 0.00 G, then tilting it 90 the meter shows an exact 1.00 G. That's physical proof the iPhone's accelerometer can measure the force of gravity accurately to within 1/100 G.



So, even though a few of us would like to think the accelerometers in the iPhone can't possibly be good enough (because it's an iPhone), testing the sensors against one of the most constant things in the known universe proves otherwise.

And just because I recorded a peak .94 lat G in a hard corner, it doesn't mean the car can sustain that for any period of time - it's just a max reading. And lat G isn't the only indicator of overall handling performance. There are lots of cars that are good at road holding, but can't move quickly through a slalom test. Lots of factors are at work to prove how well a car "handles".

Here's a random fact that will make you shake your head. I have a friend who owns a 1st gen Viper. He took it to the local track and his PB was 13.8 secs. You can speculate about why and how that happened - bad driving, mechanical problems, weather conditions, whatever. But fact is, two guys raced their cars on the track at different times. Viper ran 13.8, Riviera ran 13.9. It shows that sometimes, no matter how sure you are about something, sometimes the result can be surprising. Variables can change the outcomes of situations more than we think.

Quote :
I'm never going to drive a performance car like that for a daily driver anyway, making the buick a great car for what it is performance cars really shouldn't be a daily driver anyway.
Understand that I'd never say a Riviera can eclipse a Viper's performance in any way. What I'm saying is, under certain circumstances, modified correctly, this car has more potential than most give it credit for. It is not just the plush, bouncy, freeway cruiser that it appears to be. It can be made to accelerate, corner, and brake at levels approaching many sportier cars costing 3-4 times as much. At the same time, keeping the comfort and reliability needed for a daily driver. It really offers enough performance to be fun, yet practical at the same time. There are lots of cars available that can do this, but I've found none for this price.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: I Still Love You Bill Porter   Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:13 am

Ill give you that, and I have NO Doubt at all that you ran near even to the viper in a quarter mile. But as I said, that's straight lone performance. The rivvy would get destroyed on the nurgburgring, le mans, or Laguna secs.

And you're still right about it being a phenominal performer for the price, and that it would surprise anybody as to how well it performs for what it is.

I'm just doubting you can corner as well as a first Gen viper with a 63/37 weight distribution (yours is slightly better from the towing hitch) in a FWD car with huge ammounts of body roll and understeer. That's not to say this car doesn't corner well for a huge land yacht. But I have to doubt the credibility of a .94 skidpad on a front wheel drive 2 ton Buck with a weight distribution that bad. Cornering is mostly weight distribution, suspension, drivetrain, and tires, and the vehicle can only corner as well as it's weakest link. With body roll, the iPhone accelerometer could very easily be fooled, especially with a bad programmed app on it. Think about body roll and 63% of the weight in the car slamming into a corner. There will be G forces in more than one direction for sure. W tons of car slamming in a corner mixed with body roll might get a very high peak g force reading but in the WRONG DIRECTION.like I said, the iPhone is not a suitable diagnostic test for that. Its like trying to get an exact speed from a Tom Tom GPS system. You wont ever be accurate.
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PostSubject: Re: I Still Love You Bill Porter   Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:39 pm

No, a Riviera will never corner like a Viper, that's for sure. But that's not why I'm posting this info. I'm showing how adding the right parts, even with less than optimum weight distribution, can make a heavy car handle better than most people think, even when FWD. It can also accelerate and brake as well as many "fast" cars, while being practical and affordable.

Touching .94 G in this car doesn't mean it can corner like a Viper. Note: 1) it wasn't done on a 300m skid pad, 2) it wasn't sustained for any period of time. We can't really say my car can solidly hold .94 G in a turn, but I do believe it touched that number for a split second, and it didn't lose control doing it.

Reading up on the PCB mount accelerometer used in the iPhone, the unit is STMicroelectronics LIS302DL 3-axis accelerometer, and it's incredibly sensitive. Here's a shot of some raw data from the LIS302DL:



I believe these are voltage values, not yet converted into Gs, but look at the number of places after the decimal - this indicates precision. I found an app selling for $99.99 that uses the iPhone as a G-force sensor for automotive testing & crash research. Check it out:

http://www.aras360.com/products/software/g360.html

From ARAS360:

"G360 is a powerful accelerometer designed to facilitate the measuring of braking potential on accident scene road surfaces. This application runs on all versions of the iPhone as well as the iPod Touch.

The G360 has undergone testing which indicates very precise results under all conditions, with amazing ease of use.

The iPhone/iPod Touch has a built-in LIS302DL, a tiny 3-axis accelerometer. It is amazingly accurate and ARAS software engineers have accessed this device to optimize the friction testing process."


If they're using an iPhone as the sensor for their software, and selling for that much, I believe they know its capabilities. Law enforcement is using it, and it wouldn't surprise me if some automotive testers were also using this package to do skid pad measurements.

Btw, the app I'm using is Dynolicious, the original in this category. Great reviews and very nicely designed program. It's acceleration and speed calculations are right on as well (iPhone says I'm doing 72 mph, OBDII scan tool agrees). There is no reason to believe this app is worse than any other in this market.

I see your point about the body roll effecting the lateral G force slightly - but it would be a VERY small amount. If the best sports cars see 2-5 roll in a hard turn, let's say I am seeing 10 to be fair. I have no doubt that our stock suspension exceeds this amount. Here's a video frame of my car in a very hard turn:



There's obviously some roll going on here, but imo it's not that severe. Not more than you'd see with the big Euro sedans. Check out this e34 M5 for example:



Why is that M5 leaning so much? For the same reason my Riviera is - it's a big heavy car with sticky tires. If that didn't happen, the car would be sliding. And here is an important lesson in handling: some roll can be good. I've seen cars that seem to roll insanely, yet they stick around the turns, like magic. Take this Alpha that won the 24 hrs of LeMons race at Gingerman last year:



The car in front is our Integra, flat as a board in the corners. But the Alpha lapped us many times, leaning over heavily as it passed us, mostly in the turns.

From the above pic, here's the video of the Riv taking a corner at 50 mph. Could have gone a little harder, but note the bump near the beginning, making the car to bounce a little. Honda Civic provided for reference:



Did I see the back end slip out a little?!!!

Some footage from last year's autocross. Sorry for the poor quality. The rear was pumped too high for this run, but still the car produced respectable times:


_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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