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 My L67 swap from LesabreT.com

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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:35 am

I actually decided for now at least, not to worry about the indicator light. I figured out how to make the light work, so I still MAY do it. What were your ideas? I'm very interested.
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:53 pm

From Lesabret.com:



Just a few pictures to share:

This is the fruits of my labor today. All non-essential wiring is removed and in a pile by my stored Riviera parts. Lots and lots of things are labeled and ready to splice into the Lesabre system.


Non-essential wiring seen here. This is going to make a heck of a scrap cash-in.


Last but not least, my garage workstation happy . As you may have noticed, I have a fold-up table where the pile of wiring sits. Why am I not using it, instead using the car as a desk? I have no idea. That didn't occur to me until now.




Doing a few more little things to the harness tomorrow, labeling more stuff, then stocking up on splicing materials.


Last edited by Z-type on Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:08 pm

Z-type wrote:
I actually decided for now at least, not to worry about the indicator light. I figured out how to make the light work, so I still MAY do it. What were your ideas? I'm very interested.

In general, a circuit with a latching relay on the line from the cruise switch on the column. I'd have to look at the wiring diagrams for the Riv and the LeSabre - there may be already an instrumentation circuit for the LeSabre that would work.
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:17 pm

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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:17 pm

Desks!? we dont need no stinkin desks!! Lol
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:32 pm

In the Riv manual 8A-34-0 shows a gray line, "cruise on input." Consider putting a relay on that line when it is energized turn on the CRUISE dash bulb. CRUISE dash bulb will have to be isolated from dash (scrape thru the PC board trace maybe) and 12v going thru switched side of relay thru bulb to ground. When cruise is on, 'cruise on input" will go high (12v) closing the relay circuit and turning on the light. Use diodes (1N004) to make sure the circuit does not feed power back.

There are other ways to do this, what do you think?

For instance a better idea might be to find white wire 35 in the lesabre, it's already connected to the CRUISE bulb and the bulb is always hot -- what you do is set the switched side of the relay so it grounds wire 35 when the cruise is on (the gray line in the Riv diagram. Riv's wire 397). Again use diodes to make sure the circuit does not feed back.

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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:42 pm

That makes perfect sense, knowing what little I do about electricity. I like it Albert, thanks a ton!
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:11 pm

From LesabreT.com again:


Ok so I did way more than just label things today.

Got the wiring through the firewall! What a pain when your by yourself...


All the trans/cruise/various sensor wiring spread over the engine to make sense of it all before I loom it up.


Here's what I have to deal with on the inside. Luckily, 89% of it connects into one connector behind the glove box so it'll be easy...just time consuming. You can see about a thousand little blue tags - everything's labeled happy . Blake, Lee, this is what you have to look forward to wink .


Here's how the engine bay looks now. All the cruise/trans/various wiring is inside loom and routed across the back of the firewall so it'll be 'hidden' behind that black shield/cover thingy.




Cosmetically, in the engine bay, I have quite a few things left, but it's more important to make the engine come alive now. My dad and I have set a goal - have the car cranking and getting fuel by the end of next week. Now I have to remember to buy fluids...


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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:16 am

albertj wrote:
In the Riv manual 8A-34-0 shows a gray line, "cruise on input." Consider putting a relay on that line when it is energized turn on the CRUISE dash bulb. CRUISE dash bulb will have to be isolated from dash (scrape thru the PC board trace maybe) and 12v going thru switched side of relay thru bulb to ground. When cruise is on, 'cruise on input" will go high (12v) closing the relay circuit and turning on the light. Use diodes (1N004) to make sure the circuit does not feed power back.

There are other ways to do this, what do you think?

For instance a better idea might be to find white wire 35 in the lesabre, it's already connected to the CRUISE bulb and the bulb is always hot -- what you do is set the switched side of the relay so it grounds wire 35 when the cruise is on (the gray line in the Riv diagram. Riv's wire 397). Again use diodes to make sure the circuit does not feed back.

Albertj

Took a second look. I'd use approach #2, it's easily reversed if you don't like the result and pretty much uses the stock wirings.

I suspect the GM people would have simply made the line to the cruise bulb hot all the time and switched the ground to that bulb in the cruise control... IFF the designers demanded it and IFF the designers subsequently won the argument against the bean counter that might well ensue. That said, wire 307 to the dash bulb with a diode to prevent circuit feedback would probably do it, probably don't need a relay, this idea (option 3) needs double checked but is the most "elegant" (elegant = very simple).

However, although using a relay is not as elegant but it **isolates** the circuits and since I did not do the engineering on the circuits in the first place and so don't have a state diagram to check for logical/electrical problems, approach #2 is almost definitely the path I'd take. To do it I'd go junkyard hunting and find a relay that would fit a blank spot in the car's existing panel, or yank an accessory relay panel, relay and all, from some donor car. You will have to look around for a car that has a small relay box or panel you can bolt or glue under the dash somewheres. OR you can just use one of those Bosch-type continuous-duty relays (standard not latching) that you see in the parts stores for like $5.00 and wire it up with spade connectors. Heck, you may well have one sitting around. And hey, when you activate the cruise the relay will make a little confirming "click" noise. How cool is that... ?
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:03 pm

Thanks again Albert...you're right, that is really simple. I do like the idea, and luckily, I think I have everything I'd need except a diode. I kept everything electrical from my Riviera so I've got more relays than I know what to do with.

On another note, I have a question for you actual car experts, or those who are more knowledgeable than I. As you all know, our Riv's don't have an oil pressure gauge, just an indicator light. So our engines use a pressure 'switch' My Lesabre T-type DOES have an oil pressure gauge, so it used a 'sender'. Am I correct in assuming that the Riv's pressure switch will not operate my pressure gauge correctly?

If I'm right in that assumption, I should just need the correct sender, say, from an SSEi?

Thanks guys!
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:15 pm

Z-type wrote:
Thanks again Albert...you're right, that is really simple. I do like the idea, and luckily, I think I have everything I'd need except a diode. I kept everything electrical from my Riviera so I've got more relays than I know what to do with.

On another note, I have a question for you actual car experts, or those who are more knowledgeable than I. As you all know, our Riv's don't have an oil pressure gauge, just an indicator light. So our engines use a pressure 'switch' My Lesabre T-type DOES have an oil pressure gauge, so it used a 'sender'. Am I correct in assuming that the Riv's pressure switch will not operate my pressure gauge correctly?

If I'm right in that assumption, I should just need the correct sender, say, from an SSEi?

Thanks guys!

hopefully someone else will chime in - but yeah you're right. If you want to you can put a Tee on in the fitting where the current sender is and simply add the other sender. Watch out for leaks.
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:39 am

albertj wrote:
Z-type wrote:
Thanks again Albert...you're right, that is really simple. I do like the idea, and luckily, I think I have everything I'd need except a diode. I kept everything electrical from my Riviera so I've got more relays than I know what to do with.

On another note, I have a question for you actual car experts, or those who are more knowledgeable than I. As you all know, our Riv's don't have an oil pressure gauge, just an indicator light. So our engines use a pressure 'switch' My Lesabre T-type DOES have an oil pressure gauge, so it used a 'sender'. Am I correct in assuming that the Riv's pressure switch will not operate my pressure gauge correctly?

If I'm right in that assumption, I should just need the correct sender, say, from an SSEi?

Thanks guys!

hopefully someone else will chime in - but yeah you're right. If you want to you can put a Tee on in the fitting where the current sender is and simply add the other sender. Watch out for leaks.

Yes, all you need is a brass fitting to tee in an extra sender. I did that on my Riviera. I have the factory light, and a mechanical Autometer gauge for oil pressure.

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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:41 pm

Ok cool...thanks guys. That's a definite possiblity. What I'm wondering is it probable that I can replace the Riv switch with a sender instead to make my original gauge work? Seems like it should, I'm just not positive.
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:26 pm

Z-type wrote:
Ok cool...thanks guys. That's a definite possiblity. What I'm wondering is it probable that I can replace the Riv switch with a sender instead to make my original gauge work? Seems like it should, I'm just not positive.

I dunno. Does the PCM (for the RIv) read the OP sensor? If so, then no. If not, then why not remove it (if all it does is hit the dash idiot light)?

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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:30 pm

No, it doesn't read it that I've come across. Good point. However, seeing as my T-type has a gauge for it, my obsessive compulsions require me to make that gauge operate smile .

The only the the oil pressure circuit seems to have any part in is making the fuel plump turn on. And that's in both cars.

I suppose I just answered my own question! tongue
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:31 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRu9QTDxiIs



This was after my dad and I had confirmed PASSKEY operation and fuel pressure. I didn't let it run much because I don't have any coolant, Trans fluid, or steering fluid in it. I DO have oil...that's the only reason I tried starting it. My week's goal has been met!

There's a problem though. With the key turned to Run, car not running, the low speed fan relay turns on. 3 seconds later, the high speed and auxiliary relays are triggered and both fans run at full speed. The same thing happened whenever I started the car in the video there. I'm a little confused on this one. In both the old Lesabre ECM and the Riv PCM the fan relays are controlled by two internal switches, one for high speed operation and one for low speed operation. Low speed is triggered by the temperature reaching 212F (100C), and high speed by the temp reaching 226F (108C). Both are triggered by the AC being turned on.

The AC stuff isn't connected at all, and as of right now, I can't read the computer yet to determine the temp sensor's readings. I'm a little stumped as to what exactly is triggering the switches to turn the relays on.


Another fun problem is the oil pressure gauge is pegged. I put a Bonneville SSEi sender on the engine, but I guess it's not as simple as that after all.

Another question - on the OBD connector (remember this is '95 Riviera stuff) the orange wire at terminal 16 is an orange/black wire. My manual is ZERO help on telling me what this is or where it should go. All I know is that it keeps pointing to something called B+. Anyone have information on this?


EDIT: After toiling over my books for 3 hours, it looks like all the disconnected A/C stuff has a lot to do with the fans running on high. Will update in a few days when I wire the AC up. Also, I found out what B+ means. In this case, the orange wire is power for the OBD connector.
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:00 pm

Here's the view I had most of the two days I was off last week. Soldering iron and a lot of colored wires. That's it.


And here's what it turned into! It's actually a little nicer as of right now. It'll look better once it's in the dash and I can't see it...


Hooking up the A/C stuff...this was a huge pain. The Riviera system and controls were completely different from the Lesabre's way of controlling it.


I made this G-body gauge holder work as well as I could. The shape of the A-pillars between and H and G body is so different it's amazing. It'll look better once the dash is back on.


Almost forgot, lights! Looks pretty good huh? This is actually the gauge I had on my Riviera. It came with different colored bulb covers so it would light up to match your car's dash.






A little cramped at the front of the battery, but workable.


So what do you think - No cover....?...


Or cover?



I still think I'm going to leave the cover off. What do you guys think?

I got quite a bit done today, though the pictures don't show it. I fixed the issue with the fans. Turns out, the computer 'thought' that the AC head pressure was high, so that's what was kicking the fans on. All I had to do was take that wire dangling from the PCM and ground it. I'll deal with that later on if I ever charge my AC.

I'm still stumped on my Oil pressure gauge. I installed the Lesabre's original sender onto the oil pump, checked all the wiring and it still says it's pegged. I'm confused. Does anyone think this has anything to do with my dented/damaged oil filter? I'm waiting to change that when I do my oil pan gasket.

I got a bunch of other miscellaneous things done too. I organized a lot of wiring, cleaned up some things, and added trans fluid, steering fluid, and as much coolant as I could without starting the car. Now I just need some cash to get a new fuel pump...

But most importantly, I have OBD data connectivity! I can scan the car and read all parameters like I used to on the Riviera.


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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:32 pm

great job.no cover.
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:06 pm

Sweetness. No cover.

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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:35 am

I really enjoy watching this project come together. You're doing a great job. Keep up the good work!

Oh ya, No Cover.
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:58 pm

Oil gauge - either you got a crossed wire somewheres, or two bad senders, or there's a polarity problem, **or** there's a problem on the instrument cluster. I am thinking cluster (guys, keep your wisecraks to yourselves). When you have time please check that there's not a bent pin or connector lead or some such.

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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:29 pm

Hey Albert.

I checked everything over I can think of. The wiring is physically correct, I checked the resistance between the sender connector and the two other points in the circuit (a connector behind the glovebox and at the gauge cluster) and all resistance is 0, like it's supposed to be. Since I'm using my original T-type sender, the manuals says the 0 ohms is no pressure, and 90 ohms is full pressure (whatever that may be in this case).

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think I can measure resistance while the car is running because I have no access to any contacts while the car is running. So I have no idea what I would be reading.

I suppose it IS possible that my T-type sender is bad, but I don't know for sure.

What's nice is that I DO have another cluster i can try (of course, the T-type has a specific one) - I can grab the one out of my dad's '89. I don't have time to do that until Wednesday when I"m off so if anyone has any ideas to throw at me, please do!

Thanks everyone!
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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:35 pm

More progress today. I ordered a fuel pump first off, but I'll walk you through the progress with, you guess it...MORE PICTURES! razz


Got the exhaust off the car to remove the fuel tank/fuel pump. Did this by myself and without a car lift. Do not ask me how, I don't know how I did it. It's all a blur.


While the exhaust was out, I need to change the 'doughnut' thingy that acts as a joint between the down pipe and manifold. I had a suspicion the Riviera's doughnut was too big. I was right - look at the difference!


Riviera's doughnut on the Lesabre exhaust...


Lesabre's doughnut on the exhaust. That's a little more like it! exhaust should fit now, not leak like hell, and not sound like a diesel truck.


Took the throttle body off to clean and to install a second coolant temperature sensor to get my gauge to work.


Riviera's sensor center underneath the supercharger inlet, with a removable LIM cover that I'm going to install the sensor into.


The cover in question.


And the sensor installed like so.




Tomorrow I'm going to get some heat wrap for the exhaust crossover pipe to protect the new sensor and it's wiring, then put the engine back together real quick. Add coolant back in, and hopefully in the afternoon, the new fuel pump should be in. If not, work will commence Sunday evening.

In other news, the fuel tank is on the ground and the lock ring for the unit is soaking in WD-40 so I can remove the pump and swap it. Hopefully it'll be just that easy! The only real problem I have at this point is the fact that the oil pressure gauge is still giving me hell. I have yet another sender I'm going to try since it's simple to swap it. We'll see how that goes.

Almost there!  :mtt:


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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:44 pm

Ran into a small issue today when I was going over the wiring for the coolant temperature sensor. I realized that I had, indeed, NOT installed the correct sensor into my LIM. Damn. Turns out I pulled the sensor that sends information to the old LN3 ECM, not the coolant temp gauge. I needed to use the SENDER, which is right below it in the LN3 engine block. I never saw it, and the manual was confusing. My dad did make a point in saying that this was probably the only actual MISTAKE I've made on the project, which I thought was a compliment.

Anyway, what I ended up having to do was find some sort of adapter to thread into the hole I'd already created but would accommodate the 'new' sender. I went to Miller's Ace Hardware and found the PERFECT piece of hardware, as seen with the sender sticking out of it:



Luckily enough, the wiring for the sender was much simpler than my 'mistake' sensor, so I had everything buttoned up within about 5 minutes upon returning from the store. (seen on the bottom left-ish)



So other than the fuel pump (which I received today) and the oil pressure gauge, I'm essentially done. Granted I don't have any mechanical problems, I'll be one happy camper in a week or two!

I have one concern about the exhaust. I have a feeling this L67 is going to sound like crap with my system I have in place. My LN3 sounded fantastic, but I've heard mixed opinions on the Series I L67 with a more open exhaust and no resonator. Right now I have a high-flow cat and Flowmaster 40 Series muffler. What does everyone think about adding a glasspack of some kind as a resonator to cut down the sound a bit and 'round out' the sound as well? Magnaflow? A simple Cherry Bomb?

EDIT: I should mention the limited space I have to add a large diameter resonator. I have about 36" of length to play with, but should probably go no more than 4" diameter resonator.


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PostSubject: Re: My L67 swap from LesabreT.com   Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:54 pm

Thats too bad about the sender, the proper one would have tapped into that end plate better; but these things happen.

If I were you I'd stick in the biggest and longest resonator I could fit in. More air in with the blower means more air out, and the 3800 gets pretty raspy with the air turned up. I'd say longest is most important than DIA to try tuning out that 1990-2000RPM drone. I'd also say a magnaflow would probably last longer than a cherry-bomb.

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